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valerierackly
Posts:937
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| 01 Nov 2007 06:12 |
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EXPERTS FIND RARE ROMANI DNA IN NORWICH ANGLO SAXON SKELETON
By Sarah Morley 12/05/2006
The recent discovery of Romani DNA in an Anglo Saxon skeleton has made experts re-think the nature of the city's early population. Picture courtesy Sophie Cabot. © HEART
Experts from Norfolk Archaeology Unit based at Norwich Castle have discovered a rare form of mitochondrial DNA identified as Romani in a skeleton discovered during excavations in a large area of Norwich for the expansion of the castle mall.
The DNA was found in an 11th century young adult male skeleton, and with the first recorded arrival of the Romani gene in this country put at 500 years later, historians may need to re-think the ethnic mix of the city's early population.
Norfolk Archaeological Unit’s lead archaeologist on the dig was Brian Ayres. He told the 24 Hour Museum: “The bones were of a late Saxon Christian. We know this because it was found in a graveyard associated with the church.”
Brian was on the scene when they discovered the DNA in the bones of the young Saxon male - out of the 59 skeletons sampled. Though the excavation was done around the early 90’s the results of the DNA testing has only recently been published to a specialist audience.
DNA testing is a completely revolutionary way of testing and dating bones to find out their origins. Modern methods only recently discovered allow for lots of new links to be made, such as finding where an individual originated from through their genes.
Extracting DNA from ancient bones is a complicated procedure involving removing the DNA from the tooth pulp as the hard tooth enamel preserves the gene. This form of mitochondrial DNA is passed down the female line and the identified gene is only found in the descendants of Romani. According to DNA records the first recorded Romani Gene found in England was in the 16th Century.
Extensive archaeological excavations have unearthed both Roman and Anglo-Saxon finds in and around Norwich. © Norwich City Council
The find is exciting because it paints a more diverse picture of ancient Norwich. Although Norwich has a rich history of cultural diversity, the discovery of first recorded Romani Gene in the country points to new levels of diversity.
“This exciting find emphasises a more cosmopolitan Anglo-Scandinavian society,” explained Brian who went on to say not only does this find show Norwich as an early multi-ethnic society but it gives a wider indication of a more fluid world in the 11th Century, where humans were constantly moving from country to country.
Romani people have a bloody history of persecution, murder and banishment in almost every country they entered. They were accused of witchcraft and almost every crime imaginable. They originated from the ancient warrior classes of North India and are closely linked to the culture of the Punjabi people, also of North India.
The Romani people are known to have been in Byzantine Empire in the 10th century, so it is thought that the only way the Romani Gene could be found in this country so early is if the previous historical records are mistaken.
Another possibility is that if the Anglo-Saxons were also in Byzantium in the 10th century, relations between the Anglo Saxons and the Romani people may have led to the spread of the Romani Gene to Norwich, England
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May the peace of the LORD be with you always. God Bless |
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Victor
Posts:153
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| 01 Nov 2007 12:59 |
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| dear Valerie, sorry but I must answer your post simple because you say that the Roma/ Gypsies have a diffrent, gene or what ever, Valerie can't you see that we are fighting to be like anybody else in this world of ours, this diffrence that you mentioned, is that always through out the centuries gave us trouble, I will give you an example, in Europe, and many other places who discriminate, say that our children have to go to especial shcools, because they are mentaly unfit to go to a normal shcools, and you are giving these people,another weapon to fight us,I say the hell with the experts, and the D.N.A. that they found on those bodies,we are all one, and all God's children, believe me Valerie you are going to far! Victor. |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 01 Nov 2007 14:41 |
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I would be curious to know what this DNA is. Much of the Romani DNA is seen in other racial types of Northern India so I am curious to know if this mitochondrial DNA is unique to just Roms or is it also seen in similar racial types. When the Roms left India their DNA was basically the same as other people of the Indian subcontinent that they would have lived amongst.
There are certain strains of DNA that are high in Southern Asians but are very uncommon in say Europeans. I would be curious to see (and actually be able to completely understand, lol) the evidence that is the basis for the facts. |
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valerierackly
Posts:937
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| 01 Nov 2007 15:24 |
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hi cj I agree i too would like to know about the gene too. I got this from another web site. I was told of this boy and so i googled it and this is what it turned up. there seemed to be a few different sites with this article on it. they all said the same so i just copied and pasted this on I thought it was worth discussion.
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May the peace of the LORD be with you always. God Bless |
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valerierackly
Posts:937
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| 01 Nov 2007 15:41 |
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Posted By Victor on 01 Nov 2007 12:59
dear Valerie, sorry but I must answer your post simple because you say that the Roma/ Gypsies have a diffrent, gene or what ever, Valerie can't you see that we are fighting to be like anybody else in this world of ours, this diffrence that you mentioned, is that always through out the centuries gave us trouble, I will give you an example, in Europe, and many other places who discriminate, say that our children have to go to especial shcools, because they are mentaly unfit to go to a normal shcools, and you are giving these people,another weapon to fight us,I say the hell with the experts, and the D.N.A. that they found on those bodies,we are all one, and all God's children, believe me Valerie you are going to far! Victor.
hi victor, as you can see from the top of this post this is not my findings, the ladies name and where i got it are all at the top of the article. I have once heard of the rom having a distinced dna, I am not educated enough to know the details of that, but i do now that not all of us want to just be as one, we the gypsie and the travellers here are proud to be rom, now you may be ashamed or not want to be different, but i know many of us that dont want to be a gorga. (no offence to any-one) for us to say we want to be just the same as the gorgas is like a black man saying he would rather dissown his herritage and become white. it is not that we want to change our race when we ask for equality it is that we are treated as civic humans,with the same rights as the other civilized humans of this earth. Our people here in britain arent fighting to be the same, we are fighting for the right to be different, just has the indian people , the pakistani the chinese and all the other peoples who come to britian and live and work here.
I would gladly stand up and have my dna examined to prove my ethnicity. It would be proof that we are a race not just a nuecence people who have just taken to the road to annoy the settled people, as too many think of us. We are a race of people and has such a dna strand showing our linage should not be a thing for us to be ashamed of. Rather it shows just how far a people with no lands, no war other than that of our hosts making, and no kings and rulers can come in this world.
If you want not to be a romani or live a gypsy life then what is stopping you from settling down and blending yourself in, I can tell you what, it will be your blood and your heritage.
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May the peace of the LORD be with you always. God Bless |
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valerierackly
Posts:937
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| 02 Nov 2007 03:03 |
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I have put in mitochondrial DNA, in the search and looked it up but i still dont realy understand the sceintific gargon of it. It seemsto be a gene that can be traced back to a single source of one woman whom all people are meant to have evolved from. (lol, to me it sounds like Eve.) And this gene is unchangable and can be only passed on through a female line, or by the female.
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May the peace of the LORD be with you always. God Bless |
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valerierackly
Posts:937
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| 02 Nov 2007 03:29 |
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This site seems a little easier for me and hasnt got as much technical stuff in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Genetic_evidence
Genetic evidence
Further evidence for the Indian origin of the Roma came in the late 1990s when it was discovered that Roma populations carried large frequencies of particular Y chromosomes (inherited paternally) and mitochondrial DNA (inherited maternally) that otherwise only exist in populations from South Asia.
47.3% of Roma men carry Y chromosomes of haplogroup H-M82 which is otherwise rare outside of the Indian subcontinent⎘]. Mitochondrial haplogroup M, most common in Indian subjects and rare outside of Southern Asia, accounts for nearly 30% of Roma people⎘]. A more detailed study of Polish Roma shows this to be of the M5 lineage, which is specific to India⎙]. Moreover, a form of the inherited disorder congenital myasthenia is carried by around 4% of the Roma population. This form of the disorder, caused by the 1267delG mutation, is otherwise only known in subjects of Indian ancestry⎘].
This is considered unambiguous proof that all Roma are descended from a single founding population, originating from the Indian subcontinent around 40 generations ago, which subsequently split into the subgroups we see today.⎘]
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May the peace of the LORD be with you always. God Bless |
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Victor
Posts:153
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| 02 Nov 2007 11:57 |
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| My dear Valerie,I am telling you not to disrupt the work of the activist,fighting for ourRoma/Gypsies, now you enter with this scientific stuff, I dont think that this is the time to make reserches of our origin, the time now is the Human rights the globalisation which will finelly safe us from discrimination, when we will reach this point, in the near future, I hope, then you can search for some thing that is already found, I am a Rom and I am proud of it I have written this in my books,the Only thing that, I want from life is to see my people free from this plaque, that has been with us ever since we left India, Valerie I am 75 years old, and have seen this world upside down, I know what I am talking about, I am an activist I even have contact with the human rights organisation In Geneva, and have been invited in Buenos Aires Argentina to see what we can do about our Roma/ Gypsies as a whole! so anything that is said wrong about our Roma/Gypsies, effects me, and my fight for justice for all of us. Victor. |
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lyz
Posts:201
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| 03 Nov 2007 13:31 |
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| I'm with you Victor. Romani DNA?? I am 100% Romany and I have the O type blood, the common one! If this gene is so special what does it do? Sounds like balony to me!! Victor your doing a wonderful job keep on fighting! Lyz |
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kilby
Posts:388
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| 04 Nov 2007 11:12 |
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Hi all.
just been looking on romany roots an there all on about these dna an such. Dont understand any of it meself but its got m all on about it.
Do they take it out to test it from yure bones like mmarrow? As me mammy said, wonders will never cease. |
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kilby
Posts:388
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| 04 Nov 2007 12:37 |
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| JUST TALKIN TO ME SIS AN SHE SAYS TO TAKE THE DNA ITS JUST A COTTON BUD IN YOUR MOUTH WHAT THEY USE. FORGET I EVEN WROTE THE LAST ONE (STUPID MAN ) |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 05 Nov 2007 00:47 |
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| lol. If you ever get arrested the police take your DNA in the same way. |
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kilby
Posts:388
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| 05 Nov 2007 12:42 |
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Hi CJ.
We forget about me an dna eh. Good job ony me an you on about it so nobody needs to know ha ha.
Was on romany roots again an there on now about MITROCHONDRIALAL DNA and HORIZONTAL GENE TRANSFER.
Sounds very very very interestin if they were talking english, fraid i couldnt make head or tail of it BOUT AS TECHNICAL AS THE POPE SO WILL LEAVE
ALL SCIENTIST stuff to you an VALERIE All the best brother. KILBY. |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:16
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| 26 Nov 2007 20:59 |
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Well I can see this is a touchy subject for some. And I don't mean to step on any toes here. Flame me if you must, but I feel the need to post on this subject as I know a little about it.
But the artical maybe very correct in stating the English Romany may have rare DNA.
Case in point. Henry Lock who is a proven Romany in England, one of his male Locke descendants has DNA tested and is in a rare DNA group called Y Haplo Group H.
Y chromosome Haplo Group H is rare regardless the surname. It's origins seem to have originated in India and the English Romany I am told are of Indian descent.
I have DNA tested and I too am in
Y chromosome Haplo Group H, which means my Richard Lock is some how related to Henry Lock.
This isn't exclusive to the Lock's either! In all 7 European, mainly in England and in the USA surnames have been found to be in this rare DNA group.
They are; Lock(e), Bailey, Campbell, Carter, Jewell, Ruffin, Hite.
Reconize some of the surnames as being English Romany surnames?
So there seems to be a direct relationship between Y Haplo Group H and some English Romany family's.
This is a rare DNA group, and it wasn't expected to be found in the numbers being found in England.
Even the DNA experts were suprised to find this rare DNA group in England in the numbers being found.
Just how many more English Romany family's are in this rare DNA group is unknown to me yet, but I now anticipate to find a few more family's in this rare DNA group.
Though I don't anticipate to find a lot more just because this is a rare DNA group.
Pretty difficult to deny if the Lock's and the other family's mentioned are in this rare DNA group, that for some Romany family's we are not the normal European. I won't say this pertains to all Romany family's because there isn't enough DNA evidence to support any conclusions yet.
I do not know what mitochondrial DNA being rare DNA the artical was talking about, but the Y chromosome DNA testing on some Romany males appear to be in Y Haplo Group H which is rare world wide. I will do some asking around to see if someone knows what the rare mtDNA Haplo Group was found in that artical.
One other point is, another DNA particpant by the surname of Vasko who traces his lineage back to Hungry is also in Y Haplo Group H, and is also a likely Romany.
Of the 21 DNA participants in
Y chromosome Haplo Group H, we range from India, Pakistan, Hungry, England and the USA. That is only 21 people who have proven to be in this rare DNA group of over 100,000 plus DNA participants world wide.
And for you who are interested in your DNA. I have started the Romnchel DNA project very recently. The primary focus is on the male Y chromosome, though mtDNA will also be looked at. It is open to all Rom family's regardless where you come from.
Previous DNA studies on some Romany's showed a vast majority in the more common Y Haplo Groups like Haplo R1 and it's sub groups. But the previous DNA studies failed to provide the surnames involved in their studies.
With out knowing which family's were tested, no one including the people who did the testing can be 100% certain the people they tested were in fact Romany.
I hope to correct that error from the past DNA studies to include the surnames to show which family's are in which Haplo Groups.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romnchel/
It will be interesting to see how wide a range of DNA's will be found in the many Romany family's.
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LOCKEroots
Posts:16
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| 26 Nov 2007 21:35 |
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I will add to my previous post because a couple of you were asking questions about how DNA works.
For us men, our father passed down to his sons his Y chromosome. In most cases it's an exact duplicate Y gene, but in some cases it't not an exact copy as our genes mutate every so often, but the basic Y chromosome remains much the same from father to son.
So us men get our fathers surname passed down to us, as well as our fathers Y chromosome.
What this means is, all the men of the same surname from the same family lineage all share the exact same or near exact same Y chromosome regardless their genetic distance to each other.
Think of it in a simple way, think of it as your family's finger print that is passed down through the male generations, from generation to generation. It is how we can tell if 2 men of the same surname shared a common male ancestor.
DNA at this point can not tell us who that common male ancestor was, but it can help narrow down as to which generation 2 men shared that common male ancestor, give or take a couple of generations.
mtDNA , the female DNA is much the same as the X chromosome is passed down from mother to daughters.
The problem with tracing mtDNA is, the ladies change surnames each generation because they get married and take on their husbands surname.
So tracing mtDNA with the paper records is much more difficult, though many are doing just that.
Because the men carry on our fathers surname and Y chromosome, it is much easier to trace the paper records when a DNA match is found between 2 men of the same surname.
This is a simple mouth swab DNA test, simply rub the swabs on the inside of your mouth and it collects your DNA.
No blood test, no doctors visit. The DNA kit is mailed to your home and you do the test yourself.
It isn't to complicated, nor is it overly difficult to understand once you have the basic knowledge of how DNA testing can benefit your family tree research.
Here is how I have gone about DNA testing with the Lock family.
The 3rd generation of my tree in the USA is the first generation to have had multiple sons with sons of their own. So I choose to focus on the 3rd generation in the USA which was born in the 1760's in Virginia.
I traced down 4 living male descendants of Richard Lock Jr., actually my cousins found me before I could find them lol.
We had a pretty solid paper trial proving us as very distant cousins to each other. Each of us descended out of 3 differnt sons of Richard Lock Jr.
Jacob Lock, Joseph Lock and John Lock all sons of Richard Lock Jr.
So we were very confident that because our paper trail research proved our kinship to each other, that all of us would DNA match each other. And in fact, all 4 of us very distant cousins did match.
All it would have taken is one unknown event in history, like an unknown adoption or infedility that wasn't recorded in the records, and it would have been impossible for us to have been a DNA match to each other.
I could have chosen to DNA test much closer cousins to me, but I wanted to prove a point to my cousins, that regardless of our genetic distance to each other, that we still shared the same Y chromosome that our forefather passed down to us.
And as I said earlier, all my Lock's are in a rare DNA group,
Haplo Group H. Which further supports the paper trail because this is a rare DNA group, and according to the DNA experts, all the Lock(e)'s to be found in this rare DNA group will all be related even without a solid paper trail.
So finding that Henry Lock's male descendant is a 65/67 DNA match to me "a Richard Lock descendant", and is also in Haplo Group H, is a 100% proven kinship between our 2 branches of Lock's.
That isn't the case with the more common DNA groups like Haplo Group R1 and it's sub groups. Haplo Group R is so very common in Europe that thousands of Europeans of most all surnames are found in this very common Haplo Group.
It is ok to be uneducated on the DNA subject, but to deny it plays a role in our research and to deny it plays a role in human existance is a bit nieve. We are who we are, common or rare, we are still human first and foremost. But it maybe this rare DNA that may help show us that some Romany are much differnt then the world population as a whole.
And part of the "rare" issue maybe, that so few Romany people have been DNA tested to date, that once a lot of Romany people have DNA tested, that we may just find we aren't as rare as the DNA experts make us out to be. |
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Adele marie
Posts:6
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| 09 Dec 2007 05:05 |
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| Ok sorry i`m logging on to this slow because I`ve been away but I did ask for some explination of dna and received it thanks to someone on here, but I am still wondering? this test kit is it available still? part of me wants to know, part of me, probably me Mam shouting down from above, is saying leave well alone, the less on record the better.;) But curiosity is twitiching me so I would be grateful if you could tell me if it is still available. |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 21 Dec 2007 12:32 |
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I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts, LOCKEroots! It's still sinking in, and there is a question or two that is developing, but I think I will leave that for later. Still waking up... 6am.... *smells coffee* Mmmmmm.......
Just wanted to let you know that it was very informative. Cleared a lot of fuzzle that I had concerning DNA and how it worked. Cheers mate! |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:16
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| 08 Jan 2008 05:14 |
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Adele Marie, yes the test kits are still available, sorry for the long delay, holidays and all :)
If you would like, you can email me directly so I can send you a link to the project.
Shinari, thank you very much, always nice to know someone learned a bit from me lol.
There have been many heated debates over this DNA issue, but when used correctly with the paper records, it can be a big benefit to our family tree research.
I still can not get any answer to this Romani mitochondrial DNA that artical talks of. It seems they are keeping this a secret for the time being, why I don't know but no one will answer my emails over that story.
It makes since that they would mtDNA test the bones because it is rare for Y DNA to survive. It has to be an exceptional male skeleton who's body was well preserved and still had soft tissues to be able to test the male DNA in a skeleton. But it still doesn't make any darn since to me which mitochondrial DNA group this story talks of. I have asked and asked and no one seems to have an answer for me.
I even located an email address for the Author of the story, and she hasn't replied to my emails. Until someone comes forward with the mitochondrial DNA
results, it will remain a mystery to me.
This could be a very important discovery if they have in fact narrowed it down to a Romani male. But because I haven't had any sort of responce by anyone over this artical, I will remain a skeptic until they release this information.
I do suspect this to be mtDNA Haplo Group M that was found, but I need to some how get confirmation of this.
Don |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:16
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| 08 Jan 2008 05:38 |
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Update, I just located a reply to this original story.
http://www.isogg.org/ancientdna.htm
Look at The Norwich Anglo-Saxon which is what the story was talking about. mtDNA Haplo Group X is what the artical was talking about.
User name: Igmayka on another message board wrote
The bottom line is that an Eastern European origin of the skeleton's mtDNA is, at the least, more likely than a Romani origin.
Igmayka compared the X chromosome to that of several other ladies who are in mtDNA Haplo Group X, and showed a closer relationship to Lithuania and southern Poland. But that no one has had an exact match to this skeleton as of yet.
What this means is, no one, male or female has DNA matched this skeleton yet. That makes since because few of the Rom /Traveler people haven't DNA tested . That may change once we all get involved. So it seems this Skeleton is still up for debate since no one DNA matches it yet.
But Igmayka did also state: The full haplotype (207 bp) matched a modern Romani haplotype at all positions with the exception of one transition.
So someone came close to an exact match, who that was I do not know.
I will see what else I can find out. It will be interesting to see which Haplo Group's you ladies are in! :)
Don
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RomaniTisa
Posts:53
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| 27 Aug 2008 13:17 |
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Hello what an interesting thread. I have just recived my DNA test, although I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to see that Romanies have Indian heritage. I know we are a diverse bunch, but a majority (a large majority) of Romanies do have Indian features.
When I first got with my hubbie people asked him why he was dating a paki (Grrrr) they don't call him one punch Si for no reason, LOL :o)
It's interesting what you say about the Carters. My half brother is a Carter and his fam live up in Cheshire, England. He has blonde hair, blue eyes bless LOL. I used to joke around with him when I was yonger because I thought he was only have Romani due to his colouring, but turns out he is full blooded LOL and I am the one whos only half blooded as most of my fam are of Irish Traveller heritage!
I must say that the Irish Travellers seem to be just as dark as the Romanies I know Coles married into Gitano blood, but I would love to know why most Irish Travellers are dark as they are not Romanies. Does anyone know? |
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