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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 23 Jul 2006 23:34 |
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Not all Needies / Kyes or travellers in the UK etc descend from the Roma, but as been mentioned by some before, Anglo tavellers are a combination of many backgrounds such as Romani, showpeople / fairground people, circus people, Gaelic tinkers etc etc.
What I am interested in is which families are from Show ground folki?
My Grandmother was a Ripley and some of my cousins are Arnolds. From my understanding, both families were not nessessarily actually of Romanichel origin but rather were possibly showground folki.
I believe that many Arnolds and possible Ripleys may still work the fairs
Does anyone have insight into these families or any other showground folki familia?
Many thanks
Cj |
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Veshengro
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| 24 Jul 2006 09:18 |
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CJ, Phrala...
Latcho dives...
You say that "not all Needies / Kyes or travellers in the UK etc
descend from the Roma"… the truth is that none of the “Needies / Kyes”, as
you call them, or Romanichals as I would call them, are descended from the
Roma; the Romanichals are not and never have been Roma but Romani, being of the
Romane Chave, as they have called themselves until not so long ago in Poland,
for instance, and are like the Rom Polska (yes, like that an d not Polska Roma),
e.g. the Bergtike, Veshtike, Feldtike and Fortike, in all truth Sinti/Cale and
not Roma. DNA evidence has shown that in studies conducted by the Russian
Academy of Sciences only recently but it is something that we, the People, have
known forever and a day. Sinti and Roma, while being Romani are not one
homogenous entity.
As to the names: the name Ripley is a
common Romanichal name in the UK, as I am sure you know. The same is true for
the name Wilson mentioned by Shanee. One thing must be considered too and that
is, despite the fact that they may be of Romani background and even
full-blooded (as full-blooded as can actually be in our People) the Showmen do
not like to admit to that background often, at least not to the outside. The
same as is the case with many of the London costermonger families, for
instance, who to the outside generally vehemently deny Gypsy/Romani ancestry
while they are and their names are for sure…
Latcho drom,
Veshengro
World Gypsy Union
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Veshengro
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| 24 Jul 2006 09:23 |
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Sorry...
a little addition to this...
The Roma did not get into the UK until the late 19th/early 20th century and they were very few and few stayed. Late in the 20th century Roma arrived as refugees from Eastern Europe but in most cases were never granted refugee status in teh UK. The Romani/Romanichals in the UK are from Sinti or Kale/Cale background and are therefore NOT Roma and the Cale/Kale being, in fact, directly related also to the Sinti. However, there are significant differences between the DNA of Sinti & Kale/Cale and Roma.
Veshengro
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Veshengro
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| 24 Jul 2006 12:17 |
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some Fohki are Fairground/Circus People. But would that have to mean that they are not Romani? It does not. That is what I was trying to say im my post on that subject. There are many Romani amongst the Showmen here and elsewhere and also amongst the Circus fraternity, more than will ever admit to it. Williams, Jpones and Copper are traditional Romanichal names and as I said there are more Showmen with Romani ancestry than there are those without and the same is true for the costermongers, the barrow boys, the market traders of London (and elsewhere).
Latcho drom,
Veshengro
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beshley
Posts:65
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| 25 Jul 2006 12:08 |
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CJ, as far as I'm aware Ripley's are of Romani origin.
Although they do not like to admit it, a lot of Showmen are of Romani stock. the reverse is also true, (so called Romanies being of Showman families). Most of us can produce evidence of this. I have Coneley's in my family, they were and still are Showmen, but are not of Romani origin. Also, there are Ruffell's, they were showmen with swingboats etc. They lived in vardos and later moved into bricks, hawking fish, Dosshouse owners etc, they rokkered Romani, but as far as I'm aware, were NOT Romani. |
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beshley
Posts:65
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| 25 Jul 2006 12:34 |
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| Veshengro, can you enlighten us how it is to claim the Kurds to be our brethren please? I would be very interested to know how this was arrived at. I think we have more in common with the Mongols! LOL |
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Veshengro
Posts:0
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| 25 Jul 2006 13:03 |
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Sarishan, Beshley...
Mongols, us. How slanted are our eyes? But have a dikh at the dresses of the Kurdish People and their looks and you will see the relation.
The basic tribes, so I read, of the Kyrds are the Sindhi, teh Roma, and the Kale... sounds familiar? Same tribes that make up the base of the Romani People, only written Sinti, Roma, and Kale, LOL. The bigegst problem is that I seem to have lost the two documents and related websites of the Kurdish people that made that claim as to the base tribes of theirs. They did not mention, obviously, any possible link with the Romani, LOL.
On the other hand it is becoming accepted that the proto-Romani have been the Scythians who moved into what we now call Siberia to the Lake Baikal area and returning from there settled in the Caucaus Mountains and by the Black Sea.
The Romani People, esp. the Sinti and Kale, the Tchengane, seem to have been warriors, craftsmen and traders along the Silk Route in Ariania, while the Roma, so it would appear moved deep into what is now India and there remained longer than any of the other two groups.
Latcho drom,
Veshengro
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 25 Jul 2006 17:07 |
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I once read a few articles that mentioned that one of the biggest Kurdish tribes is called the Sindhi. I never once read a mention of Kale or Roma.
There was once also a different people living north of the black sea near crimea that also went under the title Sindhi and there is also mention of Sindi with the Mittani who were an ancient people living in Turkey.
The word 'Sindhi' has its route from the aryan word 'sin' meaning water. It is believed that the people of ancient Indian Aryan people were referred to as Sindhi due to there ritual of cleansing / purifying in the river.
In time the title 'Sindhi' became 'Hindi' which in time gave the country its name 'India' shortened from Hindia from Sindia.
Sindhi is now the name of the region to the lower Indus region of southern Pakistan, but the name was original the title used for a much greater area.
People in the ancient world who were from India were referred to as 'Sindhi'.
Hope this helps |
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beshley
Posts:65
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| 25 Jul 2006 19:22 |
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Veshengro, Mongols was a joke, (but we do have things in common I think). Personally, I couldn't tell you where I'm from. All I know is most of the Romani families I'm related to, have been in and around the Nevi wesh for a good few hundred years. I feel no affinity with the Indian nation, (or the English for that matter). If left to our own devices, I expect I would be now somewhere deep in the munkery, finding something to eat! LOL. With regard other people's clothing, I'm sitting in just me tuley bulengries and just look like a tulomush! Or is that "too much information" ?
CJ, I get the impression I've offended you in some way. Not that it bothers me, but say if this is the case, then we will know where we stand and we need never cross each other's path again. By the same token, If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 26 Jul 2006 19:18 |
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Beshley,
I know I am capable of getting the hump, and when I do I tend to go all guns blazing, but why you think I've got any grievance with you? Have I missed something?
If its your comment on the Ripleys. then I am actually pleased with this comment as its the type of feedback I was after.
The fact that the Ripleys are a Romany family is good me as I am partly made up of them. I take great pride in my Romany origins and think comment makes them stronger. I am Romany on all ways.
I mentioned about the showground folki as it was an honest statement on my part.
When the founder of this site started it, he designed it for all traveller groups, hence me starting this thread.
Beshley, have I missed something? I did get a little ajitated with somebody elses way of writing something aimed at myself which I'd love to get to the bottom of, but this was not you.
I always try to be fair and honest in everything I write. I sometime get my back up at unnessessary snipering, especially aimed at me, lol. I am unaware of any comment against me that you have made.
If I've made a mistake then it is me who should be sorry.
Cj
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 26 Jul 2006 19:30 |
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P.s.
My post about the Kurds and the word 'Sindhi' was purely factual and not promoting any theory about the Roma being related to the Kurds, as I am unaware of any possible links.
i myself am scepticle of possible direct connection.
From my past study on this subject, If I remember correctly, it was on the basis of the name Sindhi being like Sinte. It was at this time that I studied the origin and meaning of the name Sindhi, hence me writing the comment explaining the root of the name.
Lacho divvas
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beshley
Posts:65
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| 26 Jul 2006 21:11 |
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| Hi CJ, It is me who should apologise. I am a lot of things, someone on "Romany Roots" even called me "ignorant" today, (I think they mistook me for someone who cares what they think). What I am is straight talking, It's just that I had posted messages to people and got no response. I'm glad that you were interested in what I said with regard the Ripleys. I am also very interested in what you post as you are obviously well read. I hope you and yours are all misto and I look forward to further posts from your good self. |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 27 Jul 2006 08:19 |
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Beshey,
Atch kushto ta develessa mehro prahl.
Tu san mehro tatcho amahl
Cj
One of my relatives was Jimmy Clubb who owns / owned all the gravel works and suppliers with the beige colour lorries with clubb across the back (usually seen around Dartford, Gravesend and nw Kent). Hes dead now but his children carry on the business. Jimmy made himself a milloinaire and I'm told that when his wife died the Queen sent him a letter of condolence.
His father was Clubb and his mother was a Smith. He married my grandmother's sister Mary Ripley (there were 11 Ripley children). If I'm correct his eldest son 'Jimmy' always had a factuation with animals and married the daughter of the famous Mr Chippenfield's circus.
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:230
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| 13 Aug 2006 23:28 |
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I've just been visiting one of my cousins on the Ripley side. It is Jimmy Clubb's grandson James Clubb who married the daughter of Chippenfield. He makes his fortunes training the animals in films etc. Apparently he trained the animals in the film 'Babe' |
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Flyam
Posts:89
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| 14 Aug 2006 14:42 |
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Hey thats really exciting CJ! We should have something on here about circus's an the likes. Are you in touch with your relavives who are in the circus? If you are I want Babe's autograph!! LOL (only joking)  All the best  |
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nomadbill
Posts:200
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| 01 Apr 2007 23:17 |
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| I have a friend who's grandfathers people were showmen. There are some pictures on the wall of the old wooden swing boats?? There appears to be the name LEE on the signboard. I'll make some enquiries to see what i can find. |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 15 Apr 2007 20:43 |
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hi every one' was listining to rokker radio last week and they were on about show people sort of joining with the romanys to find places to stay?
iv got some realy close showmen friends and we often chat about showmen and Gypsys'.. the first time i heard the word piky was of show people'..like i say the people are ok but id like to remind the show people about what they tell the Gypsys when we want to pull on a showmans field.. you cant come on cos your not in the guild mate!!..iv took all my show people friemds to Gypsy partys and they are made part of the family' ..but iv been turned away from 2 showmens partys' and i no this has happend to lots of other Gypsys'
its the same old thing'' the jump on the romany rights bandwagon!! ..we fight for what little rights we have and every tom dik and harry jumps on when it suits them?..and when you speak to them we are as difernt as chalk and cheese?? .. like i say we are the pikys!!..there is a word the romanys call them but you will all ready now it!
sorry to be all series but i think its a joke to think that they are playing the Gypsy card when they have turned so many romanys away?? ..
a lot of Gypsys did get the gild cards but we had to be crafty to get them! ..and i no that a lot of show people were ladged to be related to a Gypsy!! ..mind you every one wants to be a gypsy now? how things have changed lol ..all the best ..bangboy!
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matty
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| 16 Apr 2007 20:27 |
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| Well I agree with you on that about show folk , b boy !is taht a first LOL !! |
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