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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 29 Jan 2007 17:29 |
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Posted By matty on 20 Jan 2007 18:37
Hi all can any one tell me why that when I look on sites about Pagans or in fact some of the sites that some are involved in and I looked as theres been a fair bit of chat lately about the subject .why is it that the sites seem to all have a "dark gothic "look and quite often links to rather dubious "dark"and sometime macabre sites? it would seem to conradict the message that spiritual and shamanic ideas are love and light just wondered as I am trying to understand the difference and to learn of other folks understandings and beliefs Matty.
Hi Matty, I have no idea why those sites are dark. And I don't think anyone would be assumptious to say why the people designed their sites thus.
Are you scared of the dark? Does the night give you the willy willies? Are you racist towards negros? Do you avoid charcoal? Do caverns freak you out?
Is there anything wrong with darkness? Of course not to any of the above, and I'm not saying that you are, but asking these questions to get a point across.
Gothic is different to being dark. Gothic is a subculture that is different in various part of the world. In my opinion, the Goths in America look like idiots. I prefer the look of English Goth who look spiffy and add more colour to their attire and not try and make themselves look like retarded ghouls.
And having said this, I think that it's all a matter of opinion. As an art teacher, I spend a lot of time discussing aesthetic issues and ethics, and how culture affects our understanding of colour and beauty.
The darkness and gothy feel of websites has nothing to do with Paganism, Old Ways, Romanies, Wicca... it's simply personal preference, in my humble opinion. |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 29 Jan 2007 21:05 |
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hi shinnari ..
i havent got a defonishon of pagon and wiccon cos iv never met any?.. apart from on the internet so i cant tell you much about them lol??..thats why i asked?
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but i have travelled and lived with gypses from all over the UK and im related to loads of gypses like most people on here' but like i said i cant speak for forin gypses?
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i dont beleve your so called' tacho rom are better than any one ells'' but i do beleve its good to be proud of what you are and to keep our ways that we have had for years(in the UK)''
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so i think thats why we dabat things like we do on here!..but of course' some people get offended but they shouldnt ' ( we are here to about any thing) ' but most of all we talk about gypsys
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and the people that know the most about gypses are the people that live with them and have grown up with them and is a gypsy!..
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i dont cosider my self a know all'.. thats why i asked about the wiccons and stuff?
but in the UK most gypses that are into any religeon are christein'' ..and thats about it realy?
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i think the best way to learn about gypses(in the UK) is to mix with them
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all the very best... bang.. |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 29 Jan 2007 21:39 |
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| ps..what do you mean the old ways ??...bang:0) |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 29 Jan 2007 23:14 |
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| I just wrote what I thought as a good response and an error occurred when I went to post it. Sigh. I'll try again bang! Thanks for your patience. |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 29 Jan 2007 23:16 |
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hi all.(just out of historical interest) most off the historens seem to agree on this for were gypses started(belowe)! ..so i take it baste on this' gypses was in the begining hindo? but there are thos that think gypses left with the jews out of egypt and was a type of jewish religion?..
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.all the best..
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The early history of the Gypsies remains speculative. It is not clear whether they were a pariah group living on the periphery of Indian civilization, were members of one or more Hindu castes, or represented a number of different social classes and tribal groups. They apparently left their original homeland in northwestern India in several waves, beginning as early as the 5th century. The most important migrations, however, began in the 11th century as the result of Muslim invasions of India. The Gypsies initially traveled westward across Iran into Asia Minor and the Byzantine Empire; from there the majority proceeded into Europe by way of Greece during the early 14th century. Their route into Europe can be traced by vocabulary borrowings found in European Gypsy dialects, all of which contain words from such languages as Persian, Kurdish, and Greek. After a sojourn of about 100 years in Greece, the Gypsies spread all over Europe. By the early 16th century they had reached the most distant areas of the continent, including Russia, Scandinavia, the British Isles, and Spain |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 29 Jan 2007 23:30 |
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Ok, attempt numbe two.
Thanks for being so civil and courteous in your response bang. I really appreciate it. I will try and be straight to the point with this post, so please ask questions if I don't explain fully!
I have studied a lot about world religions, so the following definitions are some book answers that I have recorded in my head.
A Pagan is someone who doesn't follow the God of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. And a common trait is that Pagans revere both facets of God, which is expressed in the God and the Goddess.
A Wiccan is someone who follows a very modern form of Paganism and I know of no Romani followers of the Old Ways who claim to be Wiccan.
By definition, the Old Ways does follow some elements of Paganism, in that we don't follow Christianity, because we have been following the Old Ways longer than Christianity has existed. We don't follow Judaism because that is the belief of the Jews. And we don't follow Islam, because it's not a Romani belief. This is how I explain it for now. Of course, there are many more reasons why we are followers of the Old Ways.
It is true that the Romanies who are followers of the Old Ways are in the vast minority. And from what I have seen, this can cause a problem because people assume we are trying to be like mumpli who pretend to be gypsies by following some romanticised form of Romani. This couldn't be further from the truth.
I believe it is good to be proud of ones ways! And this has also been a problem for me! Haha.
You see, not only are the Romani followers of the Old Ways in the minority, but we also strongly keep to ourselves! So here I come along, sharing my beliefs and Romanies are like, "Eh??? Who are you trying to be?" lol
As far as I know, my board (Roma Old Ways) is the only place in the internet where Romanies are sharing their Old Ways beliefs. I believe that it is important for ALL Romanies to educate the world that we are a diverse people, and what ultimately unites us is our Romani genome, rather than a specific belief.
Bang, I'm not easily offended, since I'm secure in who I am. I'm young, but old enough to know who I am and where I come from. My parents were very helpful in this. When we moved to Australia (I was eight) we (immidiate family) left all our Kumpania in Chile and it was kinda of lonely growing up away from my familia, but despite us trying to integrate into Gadje society, my parents were still able to bring me up very traditionally. It wasn't always easy, because as a child in a modern country, I thought they were being too strict, but that was only a minor childish annoyance.
I would love to continue to be educated and learn from all the Romanies around the world. And I personally love the diversity and variety, and I just find it a little disconcerting when Romanies come across with a fascist mentality.
Once again, thanks for being tatcho mishto about this Bang.
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 30 Jan 2007 00:32 |
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| hi shinari .. first of all thanks for you reply ''... and im glad your post is starting to sound like mine lolo
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because i think its impossible to say Gipsies have been following old ways longer than there has been Christians?..
our history is so patchy to say the least''...that there is no way you could know this for sure?
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and to say Gipsies arnt jews because its the religion of the jews is also way off!!... there are Gipsies jews living in Israel now.. and Christianity was a jewish religion..Jesus and all the dispels was jews? and lots of Gipsies have been Christians for years?... the same go's for Muslims Gipsies? how can you say Moslem is not a gypsy religion? .....your sounding a bit fascist now lol
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what i would call old ways and what you would call old ways are two completely different things'
i think your old ways are in the minority because its a fantasy way of looking at Gipsies'
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'we have houses trallers and cars now!! ..we dont live in bowtop wagons with horses any more lol'' with magic powers?
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i dont mean to insult you and i certainly dont think your a trying to be lol'
i dont care what any one believes its up to them? lol ,...all the best!..bang!!
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 30 Jan 2007 01:53 |
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| Sounds logical to me. Well said, Bang! |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 30 Jan 2007 01:58 |
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its been nice talking to ya my friend
..but my eyes are glued together with tierdness !lol..
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good night u2 speak to yas soon bang!!
.ps i dont always end on a complament thanks very much lol |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 30 Jan 2007 01:58 |
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Most of what is said in wikipedia is baloney. I tried to track down the author of the article to say a word or two. So not only does the article misinterpret the Aset Ka, but we, the Romani followers of the Old Ways are NOT the Aset Ka. We have a major differences.
I'm sorry to have used that poor, misinterpreted and badly documented example. |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 30 Jan 2007 02:10 |
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"and you want any reliable source of information about them on the internet."
I meant, "and you wont any reliable source of information about them on the internet."
That little typo changes the whole meaning of the sentence! :P |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 30 Jan 2007 12:25 |
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| hi shaniri'' just a intersting link dont know what youl think of it but its worth a read?
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. www.imninalu.net/imninalu.htm
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iv chated abouit this web site' before with people on here that dont agree ''i think he makes a lot of sence..i think gypsys came from egypt becose for hundreds of years this is were gypses them'self said they were from' up untill some language professre said 'no your not lol''
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i do think gypsys lived in india for many years and still live there today'
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i think the roma are the last group of gypsys to come out of india but romany was the first to leave there many years ago and come to europe.. all the best |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 30 Jan 2007 12:26 |
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www.imninalu.net/imninalu.htm
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.just to be sure lol |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 30 Jan 2007 14:45 |
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Wow, very interesting. I have long seen a spiritual (and some other) connections between the Jews and the Romanies. Maybe this site will answer some of my speculations. I have saved the site and will look into it after a few more cups of coffee.
I also have theories about why the Nazis mainly attacked Jews and Romanies (yes, I know they also targeted the "Disabled" and Homosexuals), and it has to do with our roots.
From what I have said above. I don't think that our Clan is related to the Egyptians who left in the Exodus, but I know, as the Scriptures say, that the many Egyptians left with the Jews; so according to my beliefs, there very well could be a strong mix between Romanies and Jews. OooOOoohhh, the possibilities. It's nice to be shown things that are right under ones nose! Those Egyptians who left with the Jews must have been Romanies, since they were the ones always complaining about not having any garlic and leeks to eat in the desert!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA... :P
You HAVE to have garlic! |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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matty
Posts:0
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| 30 Jan 2007 15:12 |
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sorry if I am butting in but I asked about the dark appearance of many web sites relating to Paganism out of curiosity and also trying to understand other peoples views,Shinari answered me and thanks Shinari , after reading a few articles and posts on your new board Shinari I think I will be at loggerheads with you as your Ideas and opinions are not mine and would not be the "majority" of English
Travellers or Romany people. As you say you and I are both entitled to our ideas etc,but allot of the and I say or refer to English Gypsies as after living in this country for over 500 years the majority consider themselves British or English now it may well be different in the country that you live in, but every thing that I have seen on your web page blog would trash the folki in England and They would not have anything to-do with it sorry if I offend but that's the truth.
I noticed a link to a vampire page?what has that to-do with Romany?
And why do people keep harking back to ancient times as like the English be them gorga or Rom we wernt there! then but we are here now! England has been invade so many times by different Countries should therefor the English go around saying well "Im of the Roman race or Danish or German etc etc" so why do some people keep going on about Gypsies being either Indian or Egyptian or whatever? whatever race we were originally after a 1000 years
whatever there was has been all but absorbed by the Countries in which we settled yes some are less diluted but just like any other race that has been in a Country for over 500 years we are from that country! I dont see why people feel the need to say they are from this group or that ?we are all human beings and we are the human race , Romanies are just .{or rather were )
A race of people just like any other people and as such we have all assimilated and form part of the human race we are no more spiritual or have Magic powers than anyone else
what you believe is because you are you and that is your mind and what you believe it is definitely NOT because your Romany and to portray it that way is a disservice to the people who are descended from the race sorry I expect you wont like what I have said but you have given many posts as if what you are saying is fact which it is not so ?you are entitled to your beliefs wether they be Kryon or whatever eles or groups or clans you are in to but please dont portray it as the "Romnay" way as it is not ,I felt someone should redress the balance and speak up for the English Rom Matty.(I await the onslaught) |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 30 Jan 2007 16:43 |
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Hi Matty, I'm not at all offended at what you have to say. And I think you raised some valid points that need ratification. Please read knowing there is no animosity between us. XD
[b]"after reading a few articles and posts on your new board Shinari I think I will be at loggerheads with you as your Ideas and opinions are not mine and would not be the "majority" of English"[/b]
I have stated many times, "we are in the minority". But being in the minority doesn't stop us from being any less than what we are.
[b]"but every thing that I have seen on your web page blog would trash the folki in England and They would not have anything to-do with it sorry if I offend but that's the truth."[/b]
I have never lived in England, but from what my wife tells me (she's from Ireland), what you just stated is the reason why her kumpania never associated with the "masses" of Romanies in Ireland and England. Our beliefs clash too much. That doesn't mean that your beliefs and my beliefs are any less, however.
[b]I noticed a link to a vampire page?what has that to-do with Romany?[/b]
The same as any other Creature of the Creator has to do with us. Did you even read the post? It is pretty self explanatory.
[b]"And why do people keep harking back to ancient times as like the English be them gorga or Rom we wernt there! then but we are here now!"[/b]
The topic must keep on raising up for a reason! Hehe. We may be here now, but one of the fundamental philosophical questions that most human beings want answered is: Where did I come from?
If you look at any race who has had their history torn from them - today they are lost. This is not the same in every culture, but the point is that there is much gain in learning ones roots.
You may be uncomfortable not knowing your past. Not all are as uncomfortable as you are. It is true that living in the NOW is very practical and has it many many benefits. But to our people, knowing where we came from is also very important.
[b]"why do some people keep going on about Gypsies being either Indian or Egyptian or whatever? whatever race we were originally after a 1000 years"[/b]
Ask any historian the benefits of studying history and you will find your answer.
[b]"A race of people just like any other people and as such we have all assimilated and form part of the human race we are no more spiritual or have Magic powers than anyone else"[/b]
True. Every human being has the potential to ascend and we are all equal, except we don't all embrace it.
Consider, is it wrong for all of the gurus, masters, spiritual leaders living today and who have lived to want the best for humanity? What would you have thought of Jesus Christ, going from place to place leading people to a high spiritual experience?
If you see someone who needs a drink, do you walk by? If you see someone who is hurting, do you turn the other way? If you see someone who is being beaten, do you stand and watch the show? Neither do I stand back and allow people to miss out on the benefits of sprituality. Not all will be open to this - Jesus Christ was crucified by the very people He was trying to help.
I was raised spiritually minded, as were all the Clan members I'm associated with.
[b]"what you believe is because you are you and that is your mind and what you believe it is definitely NOT because your Romany and to portray it that way is a disservice to the people who are descended from the race sorry I expect you wont like what I have said but you have given many posts as if what you are saying is fact which it is not so ?"[/b]
What I have said in the posts IS fact. Let me ask you, "What would the purpose be for me to be talking nonsense?"
It is the fact of MY Romani Clans, and if you don't agree with it, it doesn't change who we are. Does it make you feel uncomfortable that you have stumbled upon Romanies who have strongly different views then you? Then I say, "Welcome to the world human being!" You remind me of the little duckling, and when he was inside the egg he thought, "Wow, what a wonderful world I live in!" And then he hatched, and he was inside a little enclosure in high grass, and he thought, "My goodness! Is this what the world is??? It is so huge!" Hehe. There is so much more to the universe than any of us can comprehend. And for those of us who live in an interdimensional reality, don't knock it. It is scientic proof, factual, and will become the norm in Earth as time goes by (already you can see human beings becoming more spiritual).
There is much more to the world then what you believe in, Matty. Many say that our roots are in India, if so, did you even know the huge diversity in that country? Have you studied the huge variety in spiritual beliefs and customs in India? You'll be surprised!
You can't limit Romanies by saying, "This is what we are like."
In our travels, what makes you think that the spiritually minded Romanies haven't absorbed all the spiritualities from around world?
[b]"you are entitled to your beliefs wether they be Kryon or whatever eles or groups or clans you are in to but please dont portray it as the "Romnay" way as it is not ,I felt someone should redress the balance and speak up for the English Rom Matty.(I await the onslaught)"[/b]
I have made it clear many times in the board that the beliefs shared there are not of Romanies in general, but the beliefs of the Romani Clans I'm associated with. I have written clearly who the immediate Clans I'm associate with are. If you skipped the parts where I make these disclaimers, that's too bad, I have made them very clear in the introduction page to Roma Old Ways and I believe in every thread that talks about our Romani beliefs that are different to what the masses of what Romanies believe.
Don't consider me ignorant of the issues that all Romanies are facing in the world. I'm not here to add to the problem. ;-) The purpose of Roma Old Ways is not to debate about what is right and wrong, and to convince Romanies and Gadje what the ONLY and ULTIMATE truth is about Romanies - I have never come close to giving that impression. It is about sharing the beliefs of my Vitsi who are (I say once again) in the vast minority in the Romani culture.
And there is going to be no onslaught from me Matty. Peace. I didn't start the board thinking that Romanies were all going to be doing a happy dance about it! Haha. I knew that it would go against what many Romanies believe. But to say that it is not fact - that is erroneous - last time I checked, I'm as factual as they come. ;-)
Have you ever considered what we (the Romanies I represent) view you folki like? But you don't see me chucking a stink about it. I understand there is diversity in the world, and in the Romani culture. |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 30 Jan 2007 17:14 |
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I heard that wearing an aluminum cone hat helps to keep you hidden from their tracking devices. Hee hee hee.
I'm reading the webpage that Bang sent me at the moment, and running around the house at my wife's bequest trying to sort things out. So yeah, I'll get around to these things! |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 30 Jan 2007 17:15 |
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be carefull of that old' you tube!! iv heard its run by aliens!!
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.THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE !! (om youtube ) |
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Shinari
Posts:150
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| 30 Jan 2007 18:06 |
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Bang! I've been skimming over the website you sent me and a lot of the information there is not new to me. Let's just say that I agree more with that mentality than others about our history.
And yes, we do trace our roots further away then Egypt into Sumeria. Except, it was in Egypt that we established for the longest, and our beliefs developed strongly there too. Consider my Clan name which I have no problem sharing with people, it is Shinari. Do you know the transliteration connection between Sumer and Shinar? They are the same place. My name pretty much means, the cause of Sumer/Babylon.
Thanks for giving me the website. I don't like sharing too much information that I have been taught without using some modern day equavalent, since one of the main rules about teaching is for the student to have a foundation to base the new knowledge on. That is why in my board you will hear me using non-Roma terms - I only use these terms to help people understand obscure and esoteric topics.
It has been great talking with you guys about this. I want to take a break from the subject for my own reasons. Of course, I'll still be around, but I'm taking Matty's advice and just chill out on this topic for now.
Thank you everyone for being so courteous. I care about you all for being real nice to me on a topic that has been received much much worse in the past.
Sastipe kushti folki. |
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Think positively. Act positively. And leave no fingerprints. |
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bang30
Posts:1213
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| 30 Jan 2007 18:26 |
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| hi shinari!! i thought site was very interesting' '' i thought youd like it!
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i think its been a good chat!! its good to find out more about where gypses are from'.. and what they are about!!
ther is some things we cant talk about'' but the more we learn the more people will take romanys serious as a race of people!.. and not just some tramps that cant aford to live in a house!!
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all the best...bang |
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