| Author |
Messages |
|
vince smith
Posts:19
 |
| 15 Apr 2009 16:25 |
|
Hello xrosiex
Contact Don Locke at Lockeroots@comcast.net. He's been organising this for years. You can either take the test that goes back through your female line, or if you want to follow your Dad's line, you get a male member of that familly to test on your behalf. It's easy you just take a swab from your cheek and send it off in the envelope provided.
I first said I would do it about a year ago. Like every other Traveller in the world I thought I'd better not. Now I'm glad I did. I wish one of the Boswells on me Mom's side would do it. I'd also love to know if there's a shared historywith the Irish Travellers. Me Granny's lot were quite fair, but the odd one or two of them looked a bit foreign.
We can all guess forever, or we can test. |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 15 Apr 2009 16:43 |
|
| thanks vince think i would like to go though both sides of me family so can i send mine and me sons off do ya have to be over a age or do that not matter...and will it say how much gypsy blood is in me lol not that it matters to me ...dont know much about this but would love to know what old gypsy poeple i come from ...i am a smith to btw lol ....oh and its just rosie |
|
|
|
|
vince smith
Posts:19
|
| 15 Apr 2009 17:07 |
|
Hello Rosie,
Sorry about getting your name wrong. I don't know if there's an age limit. Ishouldn't think so. Don's the best one to ask. The tests don't tell you what percentage of Gypsy blood anyone has, just where your early ancestors came from. So there are many people in the USA who now know they are from a Gypsy root, who had no idea.
Loads of us got sent out there and ended up as slaves in the West Indies and Southern States of America. There are even Black Americans who test, and then find that they don't go back to Africa, but to Gypsy ancestors in Britain and then on to India. The deported Travellers would have married into Black slaves. Over generations the Romany ancestry was forgotten . Then they test and wham.
There are a few worried Gorja Smiths out there now I've tested. They might be our distant cousins and not know it. LOL |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 16 Apr 2009 03:26 |
|
hello Vince,
don't be divvy ya don't have to say sorry ya only put down the name i got on here lol i was just saying ya don't have to aad the xxx's that's all lol making it easier for u lol thank you for telling me all that fond it interesting didn't know any of that and i love learning anything about travellers
i just had a thought i wonder if travellers are all related somewhere along the line like they say or not?
god can ya think how many gorgers must have needie blood and not know it must 1000's....maybe even some of them name calling ones ..i would love to dik there faces if they ever found out they had how blood in em lol |
|
|
|
|
Chris PB
Posts:8
|
| 16 Apr 2009 04:21 |
|
| Hello Vince, very interesting your DNA post, well maybe its my age, but as you say it sets the alram bell's off, and makes me feel trashed, I think about those dear chavvies in Italy that were forsed to be tested only 2 years ago, ethnic cleanseing just comes to mind, I guess your thinking its a old way of thinking, but I think it is in our Ratt, to be suspicious, after the way our for Fathers were treated, My Grandfather Christopher Penfold, married Mariah Boswell, sister to Aberham Boswell, in 1907ish. After reading your lil here, I do feel tempted, Thanks, Chris. |
|
|
|
|
vince smith
Posts:19
|
| 16 Apr 2009 11:16 |
|
Chris and Rosie,
I understand your concerns. It took me a long time to decide. I think Don who runs the project is finding it difficult to understand just how trashed we all are of these things. Although I've always had a big interest in family trees and such, it's only just lately that I've really looked into it. The people at Romany Genes have been a big help. What really surprised me was how much imformation there is on my relatives. My Grandad was a Gloucester Smith and I don't think he ever did anything worse than puv his horses.LOl. however he was still terrified of authority and hid from it as much as he could. Then the lady who runs romany Genes, came up with an 80 page book thatfeatured records of all the Gloucester Smiths!!!. All along detailed records had been kept and me Grandad's lot thought they were invisible LOL.
You being a Penfold Boswell Chris, your ancestry is already well documented so in my opinion the authorities already know who you are.
One of the things Gorjas say to me is, '' We don't mind the real Romany, it's the others we don't like''. At first it dosen't sound too bad, until you realise it can be a get out clause. Even if you were to turn up in an open lot, step dancing and singing in deepest Romanes, they would say ''he's not the real Romany'' and they can carry on being racist without feeling guilty.
I think that anyone who has Penfold and Boswell ancestry dosen't need anyone to tell him what they are LOL, but it would be nice to see how we all tie in . I think that we all do, and there can be no dispute from racists then about us being a real ethnic group.
My Great Grandad was Lavina Boswell from Lancashire. He goes back to a man called Salvaino Boswell in the early 1800's ( Thanks to Chandra on Gypsy Jib and Mrs. Romany Genes)
Rosie is that your family onYoutube??? If so I know a few of the people on there. |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 16 Apr 2009 16:56 |
|
hello vince,
yh thats my lot vince who do ya know.. me dad's levy smith/stokins...me mum's a ripley ..and me husbands a smith/stokins ...but i got a few other family's on there anall ...ambrose is on there and he gos in cooper his mothers name but his father was a smith ...i got gorege and holly web ..old tommers boy jim ...i will be here all night if i say the lot lol ..but loads of em lol ...do i know any of your lot? ... |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 16 Apr 2009 16:57 |
|
| i am proper divvy just released if ya know em on there ya probably know all there names and nat lol ... |
|
|
|
|
vince smith
Posts:19
|
| 16 Apr 2009 17:25 |
|
Rosie,
Kilby sent me the video . i don't know every body on there but I know a lot of Stockins. I was at a Stockins stag night last week. I don't like to say peoples names on line incase they don't like it. I'm only a couple of miles from heathrow so alot of your family are round here. The man who wrote the bareknuckle book was over at me Dad's a bit back. His Father was a good mate of me Dad's when they were single.
Me Mom died earlier in the year and a few of me Stockins friends were a big support on the day. I have seen Ambrose sing a few times in church although I don't know him personally. I like country music so I think he's good. My wife is in the travellers church so I go along with her now and again. It was nice how you put that video together, I 've got a job to turn the computer on.
|
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 16 Apr 2009 18:22 |
|
| ya know vince ya got me puzzling now who ya are lol ..i ve been to the church a couple of times meself ..will be honest and say want really my cup of tea doh ..believe in god in me own way blar blar blar like we all say lol ..ya wife would probly say there is only one way ...but seening as you only go 2 church now and again think i am safe form the preaching from u lol ...the men who was ya dad's good mate was me dad's first cousin btw...and i am really sorry to hear ya lost ya mum, not long ago to ...and corse ya like country music ya a needie aint ya lol ..ya know i think ya right not to say poeple s names on here like ya say some may not like it ..iits a wonder i dont get me ears pulled out cus i forgets meself and comes out with them all the time lol mind you only mostly poeple i know want mind ...half of em is on facebook now anyways lol the gel of the falla ya said come to ya dads place is on there ...anyways glad ya like me video i aint that good on here meself but the videos are easy once ya know how ...and dont look like u is doing to bad on here lol ...rosie...p.s just about to put some more videos on youtiube of ambrose and a few others if ya wonna have a look |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 16 Apr 2009 18:25 |
|
| and if you read this kilby ya dont half get yaself about dont ya lol xxxxxxxxxx |
|
|
|
|
kilby
Posts:520
|
| 17 Apr 2009 17:56 |
|
| Hi kids, i tolt ya i was like the wanderin jew rosie , nice to see ye gettin together, i likes it, lyz,s cuz has found her grandad zacharia an his wife geranium,s grave since i got them too together, looks like i,s a bit of a shukalorn an i likes that when it brings folki neerall best to ye ,ya ol mate ----kilby---- |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 17 Apr 2009 19:37 |
|
| dont talk of getting me to gather with men kilby u will get me killed lol ..its alright i know ya only mean in a pal way lol ..heres me just told u a sad story on were ma poems at now i come here and u is on about graves lol ..ya know i think i need a holday ..in a tralier pulled away in a cherry orcherd ..wonder if it would be the same after all theres years ....just igroe me kilby i am on a trip down memory lane lol xxxx |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 17 Apr 2009 19:39 |
|
| ark at me talking like i am 80 i am only 35 that aint old .......is it???...lol |
|
|
|
|
kilby
Posts:520
|
| 18 Apr 2009 17:29 |
|
| No, that aint old at all Rosie, ya ony a bit of a goslin yet kid an ya got a long long path to foller yet my frient an many wondrous things to see before ya comes to the end of it , i got a poem for ya dad when i can finds it an i send it on for ya to read it to him , all best kid xxxx ----kilby--- |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 18 Apr 2009 18:34 |
|
| well i will read it to him kilby but i got to tell ya he aint really the poem sort ...but then maybe the poems u like he would cus they is about his sort of thing if ya know what i mean ....and thanks me pal xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx just cus u is a sweety x |
|
|
|
|
LOCKEroots
Posts:23
|
| 19 Jun 2009 18:17 |
|
Vince has pretty much hit the nail on the head so to speak. Vince is exactly right, there is a distinct difference between being Romany, and European Traveler, be they Irish or Scottish or what ever Traveler.
That will not be a popular discussion, but the truths and facts must be known that the Romany are in fact, a distinct unique ethnic people whom are obviously very different, even DNA wise to the European Travelers. The Romany are Indian / Middle Eastern in origin, while the European Travelers are just that, European in origin. Only those Europeans with Romany blood ties can claim to be part Romany, but not all Travelers are Romany, and that will not be a very popular notion for those whom honestly believe they are Romany because some where in their history, they some how confused who their ancestors really were. I know some are growing up saying they are Gypsy, and in reality Europeans gave the Romany that name Gypsy because Europeans wrongly believed Romany were from Egypt. Unless a European, Traveler or who ever has Romany blood ties, by calling yourself Gypsy actually adds to the confusion.
It not only confuses outsiders, it confuses European Travelers whom may wrongly believe they have Romany blood ties when they do not.
As I see it, Europeans called the Romany, Gypsies, and that term should only be used for the Romany and not for the European Travelers.
Even before anyone replies to this, I already know what is going to be said, I have heard it all before. You must look at it from our perspective first, we are Romany and some of us have proven that fact through DNA testing which supports our ethnic heritage because we do carry this rare Indian Y Haplo Group H1a in our direct male lineages. Y Haplo Group H1a is not native to Europe, it is native to Asia, mainly India.
How can one prove they have Romany connections? There are 2 main ways to prove Romany kinship, first is the paper records, second is DNA testing.
But if folks are confusing Romany for Irish Travelers and people wrongly presume they are one and the same people when they are not, then the paper records alone can not prove your Romany heritage. I am not speaking of Romany else where through out Europe, I am specifically speaking of Romany and Travelers of England, Scotland, Ireland who have multiple groups being confused as being one and the same people when in fact they are different distinct groups of peoples, whom over time ran in to each other because of their traveling life styles. Each group were nomads in their own right, but were originally distinct long before they met up. Some European Travelers will clearly have Romany blood ties, but not all will.
By identifying those male lineages of England, Scotland and likely even in Ireland who carry this rare Y Haplo Group H1a, will in fact help those who are part Romany prove their Romany heritage by using the DNA evidence to compare to their paper records. Those Europeans with Romany blood ties in their direct lineage, can then finally prove their Lock, or Smith, or Lee or Burton or whom ever carries this rare Y Haplo Group H1a, which will in turn help some be able to better document their Romany heritage in their family tree.
Even though a lineage maybe European, that one specific branch may have married a Romany male or female, which in turn obviously makes them part Romany because he / she is their direct descendant.
Another words, we have already identified Lock(e), Lee, Smith, Burton, Campbell, Bailey, Ingram of England and the USA as carriers of this rare Y Haplo H1a, and anyone who has a paper trail to our lineages, in turn proves they are a direct descendant just by linking your paper records to our paper records to prove the kinship. Just because a European cousin who's cousin married a Romany, does not make him or her Romany, makes the children from that marriage part Romany. Boswell maybe included in on this, one Boswell from Germany has tested but he used a different DNA company and has not answered my emails yet, so I do not include Boswell in this because he remains unproven because he used a different DNA company and has not replied to my emails to know if he has knowledge of his Romany roots. He is not a part of the Romany DNA project.
Vince Smith is a 64/67 DNA match to a Mr. Ingram in the USA who's tree traces back to the late 1700's in Virginia. This DNA match very clearly links Smith and Ingram and highly suggests they both shared a common male ancestor, and likely with in the last 24 generations, but could have been as early as 12 generations ago, regardless their surnames now. And amazingly, I have a pretty strong paper trail to the Virginia Ingram's to my Lock tree!
Smith is not a good DNA match to Lock(e), if we did share a common male ancestor, it must have been over 24 generations ago, maybe even back 44 generations ago.
Here is a piece of information that many will find most interesting. It is complicated to explain, but follow with me here.
What we have learned through the Romany DNA project with just the couple men who have tested, is something of great interest to all Romany.
A specific DNA marker was found in common between multiple Romany males regardless our surnames, regardless where our families came from.
One specific DNA marker, DNS 425 = 0, 0 meaning null value. All DNA markers originally have a value, but some times a mutation occurs and a marker can mutate to have no value. A null value marker is not overly interesting by it's self, it can happen in any human in any Y Haplo Group.
So DNS 425 = 0 is not overly important in most cases, it just means a marker mutated to a null value.
Men of India and the Middle east, show a typical value of DNS 425 = 13. What is of great interest is the fact that 100% of the proven or suspected Romany male lineages of England and the USA, all of us show this null value on DNS 425 = 0.
The way it was described to me, once a marker mutates to show a null value, it can never resort to having a value ever again.
This null value marker must then be passed down to all future male generations. What this means is, to have this many Romany males from different nations all carrying this null value marker in common, and all of us carrying this rare Y Haplo Group H1a, highly suggests that regardless our surnames, regardless where our ancestors lived, we likely shared a distant common male ancestor some where back in our tree. So I carry this null value marker which was passed down to all 3 of my sons, and will be passed down to any future grand sons.
This does not just involve British and Scottish Romany, this also includes one Hungarian Romany who is also in H1a and also carries this null value marker
DNS 425=0. So for the very first time, we have some genetic evidence to clearly suggest a kinship between Hungarian Romany to British and Scottish Romany! This one mutation may one day help prove many Romany shared a common male ancestor, that many of us regardless of our surnames shared an ancient Adam and Eve Romany ancestor. This is the first time in history that we have some evidence to clearly point a relationship between Romany of England and the USA to Romany of Hungary. By all rights this one marker is not very important by it's self, but when you view all the Romany DNA test results as a group and ignore us as individuals, a specific DNA pattern has emerged from the DNA test results.
How many European Romany males will also carry this null value marker we simply can not know until far more men are tested. But the facts are, we now have solid genetic evidence that highly suggests a good majority of Romany shared a common male Adam and Eve Romany ancestor.
If this data continues to play out, and many more Romany regardless which clans they came from, carry this same null value marker in common, will help rule out previous theories that there were multiple waves of Romany migrations. If this DNA pattern continues to be found among many Romany males all through out Europe, will help change / add to Romany history that will help prove there was but one wave of Romany immigrants. I did not imagine there was one migration, but the DNA evidence is already suggesting a different story then the story being told.
Here are the facts to date
England and USA lineages
Lock(e) carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Smith carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Cambell carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Bailey carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Ingram carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Lee , unknown because they have not upgraded to the 67 marker level
Burton , unknown because a different DNA company was used
Lee, unknown because a different DNA company was used
Boswell, unknown because a different DNA company was used
Hungary
Vasko carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
That is hard evidence that is hard to deny folks!
I do not know if Lee, Burton carries DNS 425 = 0 because 1 Lee and Burton tested with a different DNA company, and one Lee has not upgraded to the 67 marker yet to know if they too carry DNS 425 - 0, but I would presume they too will likely carry this null value marker.
Having Mr. Vasko of Hungarian ancestry sharing this rare Y Haplo H1a and sharing this null value marker, clearly suggests it is very possible there is a family connection here, a distant connection but a connection none the less.
So imagine this, say 1000 years ago, 1 single Romany generation went from a value on this marker to a null value on this marker. That mution maybe found in the sons, but not in the father. Or it can happen for one son, but not the rest of the sons. Which ever son carried that null value marker, must then pass it down to his sons, grand sons, great grand sons and so forth to today to his living male descendants today.
Here we have multiple male Romany lineages of England, Scotland, USA and Hungary all carrying this null value marker, and that very much suggests regardless our surnames today, some where back in our trees, we shared a common male Romany ancestor. It is the only reasonable explaination as to why multiple male lineages carry this null value marker in common, is that we are all related to one another, distantly related but related from one direct male Romany ancestor. That news is very exciting! To know multiple lineages who carry H1a also carry this null value marker on the exact same marker!
This is solid scientific evidence that clearly suggests Romany are far more closely related then previously known about, and that for some of us, that we likely shared the same common male ancestor some time back in our tree. This is why it is so important to put fears to the side, because being able to better document Romany history is far to important to allow to go undocumented because of fear.
With what is going on in the world, fear is understandable. But we have already made leaps and bounds like never before and to allow fear to keep us from learning our own history is sad. Those of us who have looked past our fear, have already helped show a piece of history that went unrecorded.
It has already shown that many of us are likely distantly related regardless our surnames because we all carry this null value marker.
We are the pioneers and I hope one day, or one generation in the future, will better respect those of us who looked past our fears for the greater good, that we were willing to face fear in the face and defy the haters to advance our own knowledge of who our ancestors were. If the bold pioneers are the one's who paved the path to being able to finally prove exactly who our ancient ancestors were, I hope our names go down Romany history because we faced our fears and looked past our fears and did this anyway for the greater good.
The things we have already learned, is already being hailed as a major discovery and will one day be published for the science books.
Recently one female Romany has tested and found to carry mt Haplo Group M, and that too is a very important discovery because mt Haplo M has strong links back to Asia, mainly India also!
Vince and I feared Romany female Haplo Groups may have been replaced with European female Haplo Groups, but in this one specific lineage, she very obviously carries mt Haplo M which proves Indian female Haplo Groups do in fact survive in British Romany females today. So our fears were unfounded, and are happy to report that even female Romany DNA still survives today. mt Haplo M is most often found among Asian females, so finding a Romany female who carries Asian DNA is most exciting! Here is what she knows of her direct female lineage.
Mother-Davies
Grandmother-Lewis
Great grandmother-Riles
Great Great Grand mother - unknown
That little bit of information helps confirm specific surnames in her direct female line, and that helps identify more female lines who likely also carry
mt Haplo M. But she is stuck in the paper records in identifying her great great grand mother. This means every female born in her direct tree, which includes sisters in every generation, must carry mt Haplo M also. So I am not very optimisic that mt Haplo M will be found in many more Romany females when they decide to get tested. That is the key here, some will carry European Y or mt Haplo Groups, while others will carry Indian Y or mt Haplo Groups.
Following the direct lines with Asian DNA, we can better identify the direct male and female Indian descendants, which will in turn help some Europeans prove they have at least one Romany connection in their trees.
Don
|
|
|
|
|
LOCKEroots
Posts:23
|
| 19 Jun 2009 18:24 |
|
Correction: I said " So I am not very optimisic that mt Haplo M will be found in many more Romany females when they decide to get tested."
Should have said, I am very optimistic more will be found, oops lol
|
|
|
|
|
amber
Posts:5
|
| 20 Jun 2009 04:22 |
|
I find the subject Interesting and very confusing at the same time but while reading many different accounts etc of where or whatt the Romany people are or may be etc ,and the concensus seems to point to and Indian Origen
on a website the Rural media company set up by Jake Bowers this is a extracet
"The myth of the pure bred Romani noble savage (or real Gypsy) romanticised by
Victorian folklorists is no more than a myth. Romani academics Professor Ian
Hancock and Doctor Brain Belton have reclaimed our history and identity from
Victorian folklorists.
Their work has revealed that there never was a race of pure bred,
dark-skinned nomads and exposed a far more interesting truth: five hundred years
after arriving in Britain, the Romanies of Britain today are much as they always were - a hybrid
nation made up of original Indian nomads, sturdy
beggars, landless poor and the economically displaced. We are Britain's internal
refugees.
From blonde-haired, blue eyed scrap metal dealers to dark-skinned
cockneys; Gypsy looks are as a diverse as the Romani language itself, a mixture
of English slang and Asian words more closely related to Sanskrit than Hindi.""
So would the case be that if as is most likely, Gypsies were just a low caste peasant group that left Asia ?for whatever reason persecution etc ,then would not all people from the same area who still live in India or Persia or whatever Country have the same DNA ? and therefor if they did share the same DNA, then the Romany Gypsies as they are perceived to-day would simply be people of Indian descent (or Asian) and therefor not a Ethnic group at all as millions of Indians in the world? Most people would know that there is no such thing as a Gypsy as in race that was all wanderers as every one was born in a Country and like every Country had its rich and poor classes so you could say that every poor class from every country would be classed as a minority? etc so for whatever reason they left they are no different than any other Immagrants who settled in another Country ? If this is proved that Gypsies are Indian then they would have a home Country, and would no longer have the often romanticied "Romany" label? I think alot of people would not actually like the truth ? as they like the the benifits from a Etrhnic Minority status they have been given and to be called a Indian Imagrant I dont think would go down too well by the majority even tough it is probably the truth? i hope I havent offended people but its just the logical reality.
|
|
|
|
|
Moderator
Posts:680
|
| 20 Jun 2009 12:27 |
|
| I have to say I am confused by the DNA subject but also find it fascinating:) |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
|
|
| Contact Forum Moderator. *Note* Please use the Contact Us box in the above drop down menue if you have not received a verification code, any technical problems or public outreach. Thank you!
|
|
|
|
|
| NTForums
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
vince smith
Posts:19
|
| 04/15/2009 4:25 PM |
|
Hello xrosiex
Contact Don Locke at Lockeroots@comcast.net. He's been organising this for years. You can either take the test that goes back through your female line, or if you want to follow your Dad's line, you get a male member of that familly to test on your behalf. It's easy you just take a swab from your cheek and send it off in the envelope provided.
I first said I would do it about a year ago. Like every other Traveller in the world I thought I'd better not. Now I'm glad I did. I wish one of the Boswells on me Mom's side would do it. I'd also love to know if there's a shared historywith the Irish Travellers. Me Granny's lot were quite fair, but the odd one or two of them looked a bit foreign.
We can all guess forever, or we can test. |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/15/2009 4:43 PM |
|
| thanks vince think i would like to go though both sides of me family so can i send mine and me sons off do ya have to be over a age or do that not matter...and will it say how much gypsy blood is in me lol not that it matters to me ...dont know much about this but would love to know what old gypsy poeple i come from ...i am a smith to btw lol ....oh and its just rosie |
|
|
|
|
vince smith
Posts:19
|
| 04/15/2009 5:07 PM |
|
Hello Rosie,
Sorry about getting your name wrong. I don't know if there's an age limit. Ishouldn't think so. Don's the best one to ask. The tests don't tell you what percentage of Gypsy blood anyone has, just where your early ancestors came from. So there are many people in the USA who now know they are from a Gypsy root, who had no idea.
Loads of us got sent out there and ended up as slaves in the West Indies and Southern States of America. There are even Black Americans who test, and then find that they don't go back to Africa, but to Gypsy ancestors in Britain and then on to India. The deported Travellers would have married into Black slaves. Over generations the Romany ancestry was forgotten . Then they test and wham.
There are a few worried Gorja Smiths out there now I've tested. They might be our distant cousins and not know it. LOL |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/16/2009 3:26 AM |
|
hello Vince,
don't be divvy ya don't have to say sorry ya only put down the name i got on here lol i was just saying ya don't have to aad the xxx's that's all lol making it easier for u lol thank you for telling me all that fond it interesting didn't know any of that and i love learning anything about travellers
i just had a thought i wonder if travellers are all related somewhere along the line like they say or not?
god can ya think how many gorgers must have needie blood and not know it must 1000's....maybe even some of them name calling ones ..i would love to dik there faces if they ever found out they had how blood in em lol |
|
|
|
|
Chris PB
Posts:8
|
| 04/16/2009 4:21 AM |
|
| Hello Vince, very interesting your DNA post, well maybe its my age, but as you say it sets the alram bell's off, and makes me feel trashed, I think about those dear chavvies in Italy that were forsed to be tested only 2 years ago, ethnic cleanseing just comes to mind, I guess your thinking its a old way of thinking, but I think it is in our Ratt, to be suspicious, after the way our for Fathers were treated, My Grandfather Christopher Penfold, married Mariah Boswell, sister to Aberham Boswell, in 1907ish. After reading your lil here, I do feel tempted, Thanks, Chris. |
|
|
|
|
vince smith
Posts:19
|
| 04/16/2009 11:16 AM |
|
Chris and Rosie,
I understand your concerns. It took me a long time to decide. I think Don who runs the project is finding it difficult to understand just how trashed we all are of these things. Although I've always had a big interest in family trees and such, it's only just lately that I've really looked into it. The people at Romany Genes have been a big help. What really surprised me was how much imformation there is on my relatives. My Grandad was a Gloucester Smith and I don't think he ever did anything worse than puv his horses.LOl. however he was still terrified of authority and hid from it as much as he could. Then the lady who runs romany Genes, came up with an 80 page book thatfeatured records of all the Gloucester Smiths!!!. All along detailed records had been kept and me Grandad's lot thought they were invisible LOL.
You being a Penfold Boswell Chris, your ancestry is already well documented so in my opinion the authorities already know who you are.
One of the things Gorjas say to me is, '' We don't mind the real Romany, it's the others we don't like''. At first it dosen't sound too bad, until you realise it can be a get out clause. Even if you were to turn up in an open lot, step dancing and singing in deepest Romanes, they would say ''he's not the real Romany'' and they can carry on being racist without feeling guilty.
I think that anyone who has Penfold and Boswell ancestry dosen't need anyone to tell him what they are LOL, but it would be nice to see how we all tie in . I think that we all do, and there can be no dispute from racists then about us being a real ethnic group.
My Great Grandad was Lavina Boswell from Lancashire. He goes back to a man called Salvaino Boswell in the early 1800's ( Thanks to Chandra on Gypsy Jib and Mrs. Romany Genes)
Rosie is that your family onYoutube??? If so I know a few of the people on there. |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/16/2009 4:56 PM |
|
hello vince,
yh thats my lot vince who do ya know.. me dad's levy smith/stokins...me mum's a ripley ..and me husbands a smith/stokins ...but i got a few other family's on there anall ...ambrose is on there and he gos in cooper his mothers name but his father was a smith ...i got gorege and holly web ..old tommers boy jim ...i will be here all night if i say the lot lol ..but loads of em lol ...do i know any of your lot? ... |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/16/2009 4:57 PM |
|
| i am proper divvy just released if ya know em on there ya probably know all there names and nat lol ... |
|
|
|
|
vince smith
Posts:19
|
| 04/16/2009 5:25 PM |
|
Rosie,
Kilby sent me the video . i don't know every body on there but I know a lot of Stockins. I was at a Stockins stag night last week. I don't like to say peoples names on line incase they don't like it. I'm only a couple of miles from heathrow so alot of your family are round here. The man who wrote the bareknuckle book was over at me Dad's a bit back. His Father was a good mate of me Dad's when they were single.
Me Mom died earlier in the year and a few of me Stockins friends were a big support on the day. I have seen Ambrose sing a few times in church although I don't know him personally. I like country music so I think he's good. My wife is in the travellers church so I go along with her now and again. It was nice how you put that video together, I 've got a job to turn the computer on.
|
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/16/2009 6:22 PM |
|
| ya know vince ya got me puzzling now who ya are lol ..i ve been to the church a couple of times meself ..will be honest and say want really my cup of tea doh ..believe in god in me own way blar blar blar like we all say lol ..ya wife would probly say there is only one way ...but seening as you only go 2 church now and again think i am safe form the preaching from u lol ...the men who was ya dad's good mate was me dad's first cousin btw...and i am really sorry to hear ya lost ya mum, not long ago to ...and corse ya like country music ya a needie aint ya lol ..ya know i think ya right not to say poeple s names on here like ya say some may not like it ..iits a wonder i dont get me ears pulled out cus i forgets meself and comes out with them all the time lol mind you only mostly poeple i know want mind ...half of em is on facebook now anyways lol the gel of the falla ya said come to ya dads place is on there ...anyways glad ya like me video i aint that good on here meself but the videos are easy once ya know how ...and dont look like u is doing to bad on here lol ...rosie...p.s just about to put some more videos on youtiube of ambrose and a few others if ya wonna have a look |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/16/2009 6:25 PM |
|
| and if you read this kilby ya dont half get yaself about dont ya lol xxxxxxxxxx |
|
|
|
|
kilby
Posts:520
|
| 04/17/2009 5:56 PM |
|
| Hi kids, i tolt ya i was like the wanderin jew rosie , nice to see ye gettin together, i likes it, lyz,s cuz has found her grandad zacharia an his wife geranium,s grave since i got them too together, looks like i,s a bit of a shukalorn an i likes that when it brings folki neerall best to ye ,ya ol mate ----kilby---- |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/17/2009 7:37 PM |
|
| dont talk of getting me to gather with men kilby u will get me killed lol ..its alright i know ya only mean in a pal way lol ..heres me just told u a sad story on were ma poems at now i come here and u is on about graves lol ..ya know i think i need a holday ..in a tralier pulled away in a cherry orcherd ..wonder if it would be the same after all theres years ....just igroe me kilby i am on a trip down memory lane lol xxxx |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/17/2009 7:39 PM |
|
| ark at me talking like i am 80 i am only 35 that aint old .......is it???...lol |
|
|
|
|
kilby
Posts:520
|
| 04/18/2009 5:29 PM |
|
| No, that aint old at all Rosie, ya ony a bit of a goslin yet kid an ya got a long long path to foller yet my frient an many wondrous things to see before ya comes to the end of it , i got a poem for ya dad when i can finds it an i send it on for ya to read it to him , all best kid xxxx ----kilby--- |
|
|
|
|
xrosiex
Posts:297
|
| 04/18/2009 6:34 PM |
|
| well i will read it to him kilby but i got to tell ya he aint really the poem sort ...but then maybe the poems u like he would cus they is about his sort of thing if ya know what i mean ....and thanks me pal xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx just cus u is a sweety x |
|
|
|
|
LOCKEroots
Posts:23
|
| 06/19/2009 6:17 PM |
|
Vince has pretty much hit the nail on the head so to speak. Vince is exactly right, there is a distinct difference between being Romany, and European Traveler, be they Irish or Scottish or what ever Traveler.
That will not be a popular discussion, but the truths and facts must be known that the Romany are in fact, a distinct unique ethnic people whom are obviously very different, even DNA wise to the European Travelers. The Romany are Indian / Middle Eastern in origin, while the European Travelers are just that, European in origin. Only those Europeans with Romany blood ties can claim to be part Romany, but not all Travelers are Romany, and that will not be a very popular notion for those whom honestly believe they are Romany because some where in their history, they some how confused who their ancestors really were. I know some are growing up saying they are Gypsy, and in reality Europeans gave the Romany that name Gypsy because Europeans wrongly believed Romany were from Egypt. Unless a European, Traveler or who ever has Romany blood ties, by calling yourself Gypsy actually adds to the confusion.
It not only confuses outsiders, it confuses European Travelers whom may wrongly believe they have Romany blood ties when they do not.
As I see it, Europeans called the Romany, Gypsies, and that term should only be used for the Romany and not for the European Travelers.
Even before anyone replies to this, I already know what is going to be said, I have heard it all before. You must look at it from our perspective first, we are Romany and some of us have proven that fact through DNA testing which supports our ethnic heritage because we do carry this rare Indian Y Haplo Group H1a in our direct male lineages. Y Haplo Group H1a is not native to Europe, it is native to Asia, mainly India.
How can one prove they have Romany connections? There are 2 main ways to prove Romany kinship, first is the paper records, second is DNA testing.
But if folks are confusing Romany for Irish Travelers and people wrongly presume they are one and the same people when they are not, then the paper records alone can not prove your Romany heritage. I am not speaking of Romany else where through out Europe, I am specifically speaking of Romany and Travelers of England, Scotland, Ireland who have multiple groups being confused as being one and the same people when in fact they are different distinct groups of peoples, whom over time ran in to each other because of their traveling life styles. Each group were nomads in their own right, but were originally distinct long before they met up. Some European Travelers will clearly have Romany blood ties, but not all will.
By identifying those male lineages of England, Scotland and likely even in Ireland who carry this rare Y Haplo Group H1a, will in fact help those who are part Romany prove their Romany heritage by using the DNA evidence to compare to their paper records. Those Europeans with Romany blood ties in their direct lineage, can then finally prove their Lock, or Smith, or Lee or Burton or whom ever carries this rare Y Haplo Group H1a, which will in turn help some be able to better document their Romany heritage in their family tree.
Even though a lineage maybe European, that one specific branch may have married a Romany male or female, which in turn obviously makes them part Romany because he / she is their direct descendant.
Another words, we have already identified Lock(e), Lee, Smith, Burton, Campbell, Bailey, Ingram of England and the USA as carriers of this rare Y Haplo H1a, and anyone who has a paper trail to our lineages, in turn proves they are a direct descendant just by linking your paper records to our paper records to prove the kinship. Just because a European cousin who's cousin married a Romany, does not make him or her Romany, makes the children from that marriage part Romany. Boswell maybe included in on this, one Boswell from Germany has tested but he used a different DNA company and has not answered my emails yet, so I do not include Boswell in this because he remains unproven because he used a different DNA company and has not replied to my emails to know if he has knowledge of his Romany roots. He is not a part of the Romany DNA project.
Vince Smith is a 64/67 DNA match to a Mr. Ingram in the USA who's tree traces back to the late 1700's in Virginia. This DNA match very clearly links Smith and Ingram and highly suggests they both shared a common male ancestor, and likely with in the last 24 generations, but could have been as early as 12 generations ago, regardless their surnames now. And amazingly, I have a pretty strong paper trail to the Virginia Ingram's to my Lock tree!
Smith is not a good DNA match to Lock(e), if we did share a common male ancestor, it must have been over 24 generations ago, maybe even back 44 generations ago.
Here is a piece of information that many will find most interesting. It is complicated to explain, but follow with me here.
What we have learned through the Romany DNA project with just the couple men who have tested, is something of great interest to all Romany.
A specific DNA marker was found in common between multiple Romany males regardless our surnames, regardless where our families came from.
One specific DNA marker, DNS 425 = 0, 0 meaning null value. All DNA markers originally have a value, but some times a mutation occurs and a marker can mutate to have no value. A null value marker is not overly interesting by it's self, it can happen in any human in any Y Haplo Group.
So DNS 425 = 0 is not overly important in most cases, it just means a marker mutated to a null value.
Men of India and the Middle east, show a typical value of DNS 425 = 13. What is of great interest is the fact that 100% of the proven or suspected Romany male lineages of England and the USA, all of us show this null value on DNS 425 = 0.
The way it was described to me, once a marker mutates to show a null value, it can never resort to having a value ever again.
This null value marker must then be passed down to all future male generations. What this means is, to have this many Romany males from different nations all carrying this null value marker in common, and all of us carrying this rare Y Haplo Group H1a, highly suggests that regardless our surnames, regardless where our ancestors lived, we likely shared a distant common male ancestor some where back in our tree. So I carry this null value marker which was passed down to all 3 of my sons, and will be passed down to any future grand sons.
This does not just involve British and Scottish Romany, this also includes one Hungarian Romany who is also in H1a and also carries this null value marker
DNS 425=0. So for the very first time, we have some genetic evidence to clearly suggest a kinship between Hungarian Romany to British and Scottish Romany! This one mutation may one day help prove many Romany shared a common male ancestor, that many of us regardless of our surnames shared an ancient Adam and Eve Romany ancestor. This is the first time in history that we have some evidence to clearly point a relationship between Romany of England and the USA to Romany of Hungary. By all rights this one marker is not very important by it's self, but when you view all the Romany DNA test results as a group and ignore us as individuals, a specific DNA pattern has emerged from the DNA test results.
How many European Romany males will also carry this null value marker we simply can not know until far more men are tested. But the facts are, we now have solid genetic evidence that highly suggests a good majority of Romany shared a common male Adam and Eve Romany ancestor.
If this data continues to play out, and many more Romany regardless which clans they came from, carry this same null value marker in common, will help rule out previous theories that there were multiple waves of Romany migrations. If this DNA pattern continues to be found among many Romany males all through out Europe, will help change / add to Romany history that will help prove there was but one wave of Romany immigrants. I did not imagine there was one migration, but the DNA evidence is already suggesting a different story then the story being told.
Here are the facts to date
England and USA lineages
Lock(e) carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Smith carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Cambell carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Bailey carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Ingram carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
Lee , unknown because they have not upgraded to the 67 marker level
Burton , unknown because a different DNA company was used
Lee, unknown because a different DNA company was used
Boswell, unknown because a different DNA company was used
Hungary
Vasko carries Y Haplo H1a and carries DNS 425 = 0
That is hard evidence that is hard to deny folks!
I do not know if Lee, Burton carries DNS 425 = 0 because 1 Lee and Burton tested with a different DNA company, and one Lee has not upgraded to the 67 marker yet to know if they too carry DNS 425 - 0, but I would presume they too will likely carry this null value marker.
Having Mr. Vasko of Hungarian ancestry sharing this rare Y Haplo H1a and sharing this null value marker, clearly suggests it is very possible there is a family connection here, a distant connection but a connection none the less.
So imagine this, say 1000 years ago, 1 single Romany generation went from a value on this marker to a null value on this marker. That mution maybe found in the sons, but not in the father. Or it can happen for one son, but not the rest of the sons. Which ever son carried that null value marker, must then pass it down to his sons, grand sons, great grand sons and so forth to today to his living male descendants today.
Here we have multiple male Romany lineages of England, Scotland, USA and Hungary all carrying this null value marker, and that very much suggests regardless our surnames today, some where back in our trees, we shared a common male Romany ancestor. It is the only reasonable explaination as to why multiple male lineages carry this null value marker in common, is that we are all related to one another, distantly related but related from one direct male Romany ancestor. That news is very exciting! To know multiple lineages who carry H1a also carry this null value marker on the exact same marker!
This is solid scientific evidence that clearly suggests Romany are far more closely related then previously known about, and that for some of us, that we likely shared the same common male ancestor some time back in our tree. This is why it is so important to put fears to the side, because being able to better document Romany history is far to important to allow to go undocumented because of fear.
With what is going on in the world, fear is understandable. But we have already made leaps and bounds like never before and to allow fear to keep us from learning our own history is sad. Those of us who have looked past our fear, have already helped show a piece of history that went unrecorded.
It has already shown that many of us are likely distantly related regardless our surnames because we all carry this null value marker.
We are the pioneers and I hope one day, or one generation in the future, will better respect those of us who looked past our fears for the greater good, that we were willing to face fear in the face and defy the haters to advance our own knowledge of who our ancestors were. If the bold pioneers are the one's who paved the path to being able to finally prove exactly who our ancient ancestors were, I hope our names go down Romany history because we faced our fears and looked past our fears and did this anyway for the greater good.
The things we have already learned, is already being hailed as a major discovery and will one day be published for the science books.
Recently one female Romany has tested and found to carry mt Haplo Group M, and that too is a very important discovery because mt Haplo M has strong links back to Asia, mainly India also!
Vince and I feared Romany female Haplo Groups may have been replaced with European female Haplo Groups, but in this one specific lineage, she very obviously carries mt Haplo M which proves Indian female Haplo Groups do in fact survive in British Romany females today. So our fears were unfounded, and are happy to report that even female Romany DNA still survives today. mt Haplo M is most often found among Asian females, so finding a Romany female who carries Asian DNA is most exciting! Here is what she knows of her direct female lineage.
Mother-Davies
Grandmother-Lewis
Great grandmother-Riles
Great Great Grand mother - unknown
That little bit of information helps confirm specific surnames in her direct female line, and that helps identify more female lines who likely also carry
mt Haplo M. But she is stuck in the paper records in identifying her great great grand mother. This means every female born in her direct tree, which includes sisters in every generation, must carry mt Haplo M also. So I am not very optimisic that mt Haplo M will be found in many more Romany females when they decide to get tested. That is the key here, some will carry European Y or mt Haplo Groups, while others will carry Indian Y or mt Haplo Groups.
Following the direct lines with Asian DNA, we can better identify the direct male and female Indian descendants, which will in turn help some Europeans prove they have at least one Romany connection in their trees.
Don
|
|
|
|
|
LOCKEroots
Posts:23
|
| 06/19/2009 6:24 PM |
|
Correction: I said " So I am not very optimisic that mt Haplo M will be found in many more Romany females when they decide to get tested."
Should have said, I am very optimistic more will be found, oops lol
|
|
|
|
|
amber
Posts:5
|
| 06/20/2009 4:22 AM |
|
I find the subject Interesting and very confusing at the same time but while reading many different accounts etc of where or whatt the Romany people are or may be etc ,and the concensus seems to point to and Indian Origen
on a website the Rural media company set up by Jake Bowers this is a extracet
"The myth of the pure bred Romani noble savage (or real Gypsy) romanticised by
Victorian folklorists is no more than a myth. Romani academics Professor Ian
Hancock and Doctor Brain Belton have reclaimed our history and identity from
Victorian folklorists.
Their work has revealed that there never was a race of pure bred,
dark-skinned nomads and exposed a far more interesting truth: five hundred years
after arriving in Britain, the Romanies of Britain today are much as they always were - a hybrid
nation made up of original Indian nomads, sturdy
beggars, landless poor and the economically displaced. We are Britain's internal
refugees.
From blonde-haired, blue eyed scrap metal dealers to dark-skinned
cockneys; Gypsy looks are as a diverse as the Romani language itself, a mixture
of English slang and Asian words more closely related to Sanskrit than Hindi.""
So would the case be that if as is most likely, Gypsies were just a low caste peasant group that left Asia ?for whatever reason persecution etc ,then would not all people from the same area who still live in India or Persia or whatever Country have the same DNA ? and therefor if they did share the same DNA, then the Romany Gypsies as they are perceived to-day would simply be people of Indian descent (or Asian) and therefor not a Ethnic group at all as millions of Indians in the world? Most people would know that there is no such thing as a Gypsy as in race that was all wanderers as every one was born in a Country and like every Country had its rich and poor classes so you could say that every poor class from every country would be classed as a minority? etc so for whatever reason they left they are no different than any other Immagrants who settled in another Country ? If this is proved that Gypsies are Indian then they would have a home Country, and would no longer have the often romanticied "Romany" label? I think alot of people would not actually like the truth ? as they like the the benifits from a Etrhnic Minority status they have been given and to be called a Indian Imagrant I dont think would go down too well by the majority even tough it is probably the truth? i hope I havent offended people but its just the logical reality.
|
|
|
|
|
Moderator
Posts:680
|
| 06/20/2009 12:27 PM |
|
| I have to say I am confused by the DNA subject but also find it fascinating:) |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
|
|
|
|