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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 22 Jun 2009 07:24 |
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I agree with Jake to a point, but he obviously has not consulted with me on the matter to be up to date on the latest findings.
I fully agree that Romany were never a "pure" race, and on that
premise, there really is no such thing as a "pure" race anyone, we are
all humans and we all descended from human ancient ancestors. To
believe one is "pure" is a racist attitude and goes right in line with
Hitlers way of thinking.
That is not at all the point of this DNA project, to even suggest one
is more pure then another because there is no such thing to start with.
To me anyone who has Romany blood ties, is Romany or at the very least part Romany.
The point is, our ancient ancestors carried this rare Y Haplo Group H1a
in to Europe and as the family grew, they split up and went in
different directions, and my direct line ended up in England. I say my
direct line, the DNA evidence now highly suggests many of us likely
shared a common male ancestor as late as 44 generations ago. H1a is not
native to Europe, and the only Europeans to carry H1a, are the direct
Asian male descendants in Europe, whom we now know as the Romany. The
only Europeans found in H1a, have all been found to be Romany males.
Romany DNA testing has been done all over Europe by privately funded
DNA studies, and Y Haplo H1a is the most dominate Haplo Group found in
the vast majority of the clans, regardless their surnames, regardless
where they lived. I started this project because I wanted a Romany run
independent study to see if our project would agree with the privately
funded studies. And with the few who have tested so far, already agrees
with the privately funded studies. I do not take outsiders at their
word, I must see things with my own eyes, but my own study does seem to
agree with their studies.
But my study has taken it to a far higher level then the privately
funded studies because we have access to far better testing then they
had.
My project has the 67 marker test available to us and the new Deep
Clade SNP test available to us. The privately funded studies only
tested 10 to 12 markers, we are testing up to 67 markers! They could
only say we were in Haplo H, my project has proven we are in fact in
H1a which is a sub group of H.
My project has discovered something of great interest that no one else
knew about. I have identified a specific marker in common among Romany
males in H1a.
This project is not about proving who has more Romany in them and who doesn't, I only care about who does have Romany in them period.
And anyone who tries to play that mental game with me to try to say they have more Romany blood in them then another person, I say they better go research their own family tree before making such statements because we all have European ties in our trees, and likely did long before they entered England and Scotland.
The point is, H1a is not native to Europe, it is native to Asia, mainly India with some found in Pakistan who carries this rare H1a also.
By following the families who do carry H1a, we all can better document which were the direct Indian male lineages and all of us can by far better document our direct Asian male lineages. Romany very obviously married Europeans, who's children were part Romany and that European surname was then added to our Romany family tree. But we can not change how mother nature made us. If it was a European male who married a Romany and their children now being part Romany, took on the Romany way of life and not the European way of life, that new surname was added to our tree.
But regardless how many times that new addition marries back in to the Romany families, his forefathers were of European in origin and his male descendants can never carry H1a because he is European and must pass down his European Y Haplo Group to his male children.
So we will and already have found European male lineages whom very obviously married Romany females, but the males carry the European Y Haplo Groups like Haplo I1 and Haplo R1b1b2.
You can click on this link http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults to the India DNA project and see with your own eyes. Indian Y Haplo groups greatly vary and Y Haplo R1a* is the most dominate Haplo Group in India, so to say Romany are related to all Indians is 100% false!
Indian males are found in Y Haplo R1a, Haplo J2, Haplo L, Haplo Q, Haplo R2 and other sorted Haplo Groups. So not even the Indians are all in the same
Y Haplo Groups meaning they are not all related as Jake presumes. Haplo H, H1 and H1a are also found in India
An Indian in say Y Haplo R1a can not be related to an Indian in Haplo J2, simply impossible. That is not to say on paper their 2 families did not marry at some point, but on a genetic level, it is impossible for the 2 men to have ever shared a common male ancestor because they carry different Haplo Groups. They of course may have shared a common male ancestor 20,000 to 40,000 years ago, but impossible to have shared one in modern history.
Send Jake my way, I would love to have this discussion with him one day! :)
I have tried to email him but got no response.
As Romany mingled more and more with Europeans, obviously more and more European surnames were added to our trees. But because no one recorded our European connections, today no one has any clue who was who. DNA can tell! Certain Haplo Groups are only found in certain areas of the world, but not found in other areas of the world, that was up until recent times with the mass migrations to many western nations.
Many are part Romany but are not able to 100% prove it, and this project will one day be able to help many help prove who their Romany ancestor was. Those of us who are found in H1a, can then share our family trees to help other cousins find their Romany roots. Those Romany who have since forgotten their Romany roots, can then rediscover their roots thanks to this project. Finding our cousins and documenting our trees is the goal of this project.
Remember England and Scotland history, they both created anti Gypsy laws and banished an untold number of Romany over seas against their wills.
Our families were torn apart and were never seen again. None of our trees can be complete unless we seek out our distant cousins in other lands.
Through no fault of their own, many were shipped to Jamaica, Barbados, Bermuda, the American Colonies and else where, and some were sold in to slavery.
This is your family as well as my family! No family was immune to being transported. All it took was to be caught hawking with out a license and one could be transported for life. Many were jailed, but a good many were transported too only to never be heard from again. Some did survive and were later released and thrived in their new lands that they were forced to call home now. But they were banished and could not legally return to England and Scotland for face the noose, or life in prison. Wonder why so many trees are at a dead end in England and Scotland? Because a whole lot of missing pieces of the puzzle were banished and shipped over seas against their wills. No tree can be complete unless we find our cousins and piece their branches back in to the tree. If even one branch is missing, trees can never be whole.
So do not look at me as an American, do not look at others as Jamaicans or what ever, look at us as your long lost cousins who were torn away and accept the facts that we did not all choose to live where we now live, that choice was made for many of us.
You must understand the history behind all of this, our families were torn apart, which is why so many can not go far in their family trees, because very important key family members who hold the clues to the rest of your tree is now in other lands, presuming they survived the trip over seas.
DNA testing has already discovered this specific marker in common among Romany males that I spoke of in my previous post. No one else discovered this fact, I did and only because people like me and Vince Smith and others looked past our fears and took the test for the greater good.
Anyone who even attempts to try to use this project to claim they are more Romany then anyone else, will quickly get an earful from me, because that is plain racist no differently then the way Hitler saw things.
The point is, for the very first time, we have the technology to give us some solid answers like never before.
We can in fact one day have solid proof to clearly identify about how many unrelated Romany males entered England and Scotland with a simple mouth swab DNA test. That is a long time mystery that can to a high degree be determined and backed up with science! We may one day find there were only a small handful of distinct unique DNA strings and that will tell us about how many unrelated Romany males entered the UK.
We may learn there were far more unrelated males, we may learn there were only a few, we simply do not know. But for the first time in history, we have the technology to start finding some of the answers if we just get past our fears for the greater good.
With only a couple of men tested so far, the things we have already learned is simply amazing! To know a Hungarian Romany carries the exact same marker mutation as Scottish and British and American Romany is very exciting news people! But I believe this is only the tip of the ice berg so to speak, I believe a lot more will be discovered as more men get tested, and DNA technology gets better. If enough men all through out Europe gets involved, we may one day be able to start mapping out a likely migration route, and that too would be very exciting! No one has been able to map out a migration route, but given enough DNA evidence between all Romany of Europe, it is very possible to start building that migration map!
And there maybe things to be discovered that even I have not considered! I do not know it all believe me lol.
I am sure I am over looking things because I do not fully understand it all either. But we are giving the DNA experts a glimpse in to our rare DNA and allowing them to find other answers on their own.
Many have told me, they are stuck in the paper records and have no where to turn, yes they do! DNA can even help identify those lineages who changed surnames! There are so many different aspects to this project it is hard to name everything that can happen.
DNA proved a close cousin of mine was adopted! He has since been added to the family tree! His adopted name is Graham, but he is in fact a Locke.
Do not sell this project short, there are so many things it can help with for all of our trees, and the majority of our trees are all tied to one another anyway, so the more we prove, the more we all learn together.
I am the first to openly to admit, my direct lineage is chocked full of marriages to European females, but mainly because my direct line was one of those banished and had little choice in the matter. I even have a little Cherokee Indian in me, nothing to be ashamed of, just a part of my family history is all.
I do carry this rare Haplo H1a, yet I am very obviously mixed! And if I carry H1a and I am mixed then it is impossible for anyone to claim "pure".
But I can say, my direct male ancestor was one of those men who left India for Europe who ended up in England. But that does not make me or Vince Smith or anyone else who carries H1a any more Romany then the next person. Look at it in a historical context, we have just identified 2 very specific lineages who's direct male ancestors came from Asia to Europe. That can not be viewed as a racist view, it must be viewed as a historical fact backed up with DNA evidence. And in that context as a historical fact, those who try to view it as a racist view, will get an earful from me because they very obviously have not a clue what they are speaking of and have not looked at their own family tree to get the facts straight.
I know I know, there are some who claim "pure" and I cringe just like many others who see such claims being said.
Hitler's who goal was to try to wipe out anyone he deemed impure to try to create a pure race people which is physically impossible with out causing humans to go extinct. So for anyone telling others they are pure, are very much acting in the same manor as Hitler himself and must be corrected by all of us.
I can only point you to the DNA studies going on, and if you go read what I read every day, you will see that what Jake and many other say is not always exactly correct. Their intentions are good don't get me wrong, but they need to come talk to the horses mouth, me to get the facts straight.
That is what kills me the most, no one comes to me to ask such questions to get their facts straight, they maybe close to the truth, but because of their reputations, what ever they say must be 100% true and that is a bit misleading on their part when they have not come to the one person who is actually doing the research.
I highly respect Jake and many others for all that they do, but not once has any of them come to me asking me to share my research, to explain why this project is so important for all of us to be involved in. We can use it to find more family connections, not only in England but around the globe, can use it to help prove who our ancient ancestors were. Can use it for many things that even I have not thought of yet.
And for Jake of all people to say Romany are related to all of India is false, yes we are related to some in India, but not all. All anyone has to do is look at the DNA studies and anyone can clearly see what I am talking about if they just give it a shot.
I say do not take my word for it, go review the many different studies going on and compare Romany DNA to the world and you come to your own conclusions.
But understand one thing here. I have shared my research with the world leaders in DNA technology. I have openly challenged the world DNA leaders to try to come up with a different answer. To my amazement, not one has attempted to challenge my research, all agree with me that the Romany has a very close relationship to Y Haplo H1a, and that the only Europeans in H1a are the Romany males.
I challenged the world leaders to try to come up with a different answer, I did so because I do not know it all, I wanted to see if anyone could come up with a different answer, but all agreed with my research, and to my amazement, are now calling me the worlds leading authority on Romany DNA because I have discovered things no one else did. So this is not my claims, I tried to get my research challenged and no one disagrees with my research. If the leaders in DNA technology do not challenge my work, and all agree with my research, who am I to question them! lol.
They all have told me I am on to something big, to keep headed in the direction I am headed! That is very encouraging to hear the leaders of DNA technology to prompt me to continue down this path, that I am on the right path! I am no DNA expert believe me, but I happened to see a specific pattern and only because a small handful of us took the plunge and got tested to the 67 marker level.
I am now following that specific DNA pattern in hopes it leads down a path to bigger discoveries!
I can not predict what the outcome will be, but I guarantee we will all learn together and will learn things that we all did not know before this technology was made available.
Don
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cheri-m
Posts:50
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| 22 Jun 2009 08:55 |
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| I have to admit looking at it from a novices point as I know little of DNA !but am I right in thinking that what you are saying is that like England(just say for a simple example) is one nation but we accept Scotland/ireland/Wales and no doubt these areas had their own clans in the way back when days then India would have also had certain clans abit like the different tribes you get in Africa so therefor although from x? whatever clan or tribe one would still be either Indian or Africn just as the Bedouin tribe is from Arabi? so that would still mean that the group Y Haplo H1a which is specifically found in what we would call Romany people but they would still be from India? Sio as such you would have Indian or Pakistan descendands and that would be the original homeland? |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 22 Jun 2009 17:32 |
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Hi cheri
Exactly right, they are still Indian, but with in India are many caste systems in place, tribes of sorts. The point of this project is to try to pin point a specific tribe with India or Pakistan as our ancient ancestors. You have the right idea.
Same thing with Romany, we supposedly come from different clans. Romanchel, Sinti, Dom and so forth. But that may not exactly be the full case, DNA has already shown us something no one knew before, that a Rom from Hungary shares the exact same marker mutation as a Rom of England and Scotland.
So to say we are from different clans in a sense, maybe a bit of an urban myth. If the Romany clans are in fact all related, and we keep finding this marker mutation through out European Romany lines regardless which clan they descended from, will very clearly suggest all Romany males shared a common male Adam and Eve ancestor.
Why I say we are related to some men of India, not related to all men of India because that is not the case. We do not know which clans / castes we are related to yet, but with each Indian found in H1a, helps narrow down that list of suspects. That is why I am striving to try to help narrow down the list of Indians who do carry H1a. Remember, I also run the Y Haplo Group H DNA project, so I have direct access to Indian and Pakistani participants DNA tests to compare to. Those Indians and Pakistani's in H1a, are men I send emails to, to try to understand their castes / clan systems to see if there is a pattern between them.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/YHaploGroupH/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx
From this other project, we now know one Pakistani carries H1a, 8 Indians in H1a out of 44 participants.
The remaining Indians in this project are in H and H1, so 8 of 44 Indians carry H1a and that very clearly tells you no we are not related to all Indians, we are related to specific Indians with in India. But so far a specific pattern has not emerged between the 8 participants, each has their own caste system, some are Hindu, some are Christian. But if a pattern is found among the 8 Indians and one Pakistani in H1a, will no doubts give us clues to our Romany ancestors.
So far of the Indians tested, none carries this null value marker DNS 425 = 0. That maybe because this mutation occurred in Europe that did not affect Indians, we just don't know yet.
By comparing all men of India and Pakistan, we have since narrowed down that list to 8 specific men so far who are a far closer DNA match to the Romany. We are making progress, but the answers are not there just yet. We are closer to an answer then ever before, but what that answer is I do not know yet.
It is when you compare side by side, Romany DNA, to Indian and Pakistani DNA, do you start to see specific DNA patterns in common with certain select people, but not to all the people.
I have asked the 8 Indians in H1a, to compare notes with each others family trees / history to see if there is a common denominator that they all share in common. Unil that one thing in common besides DNA is found, it is difficult to pin point a specific clan / caste or religion or what ever that common denominator is between them. It may take an Indian historian to study the 8 Indian families to see what the 8 have in common besides DNA.
For Romany males to be a DNA match to 8 specific Indians does not mean we are related to all Indians, but only to the 8 who match us so far.
So we must ask our Indian cousins for help with this, they know their own history very well, and with their help, they may find something in common besides DNA in common. It is possible that originally it was a nomadic tribe who split up in to different castes / clans which maybe why we find them in differnt groups today, Hindu and Christian both. But we are closer today then ever before, just not quite there yet.
The Y Haplo H DNA project is made of of men from India, Pakistan, England, USA, Hungary, even Thialand!
Both the Indian military and British Military have spent time in Thialand, so this one participant believes his direct male ancestor must have been Indian or British, likely Indian he believes. But Thialand records are not easily accessed by their citizens and he is attempting to gain access to his family records to see if he can find answers.
Don
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Ditch
Posts:48
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| 23 Jun 2009 07:34 |
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Don; Is there a simple explanation for why you only appear interested in the male lines?
I probably have more to ask / say. But, whilst you obviously live and breath all this on a daily basis; I ~ like most, it appears ~ am trying to read what ye saying and get a handle of personal understanding on it.
So, I'd like to try one thing at a time, and in sound bites. Might be easier to digest that way?
Cheers, mate 
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 23 Jun 2009 12:35 |
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just to educate the people who read this who are not gypsy i want to tell them romanys are romanys from there travals,thats when a romany became a romany over hundreds of yeares, no romany is a indian or pakistany,thoes countrys where not evan there when cave men romed the land thousands of yeares ago,romany became who they are from there travals and meetings of people who they reconised as there own,if you go down the road of science it is said the cave men themselfs where related to fish who crorled out of the sea many thousands of yeares ago,the fish it is said are desended from cells that flowted the oceans for millions of yeares so where does this lead us if we say we come from pakistan well then is there a romany cave man then fish then cell then a bit of dust from the big bang when science tells us thats where all our relations come from is there a romany dust paritcle,
the true answer for eny gypsy is your family is your family,who once thought to think of your long gone relations who where gypsys if they wished to be clasified in some lab, dordi its mokodi and and not evan right,the gypsy is the traverla and all in is family are family they only became who they where when they chanced to rome the worled,eny one now sees that gypsys come in all shades but to themselfs they are gypsys,
if your born out your a gorja for life,you can not become apart of a family through testing that says your related to a fish or piece of dust from the big bang,there are many things that makes a gypsy who they are but one thing that does not is saying your from pakistan,the gypsy became the traverla when they chose to rome the worled,in each country they chose words and people to become apart of there gypsy nation,many gypsys in europe hold know indian DNA but there gypsy for there apart of the gypsy tribe in ways and blood,if you belong to the gypsy you are gypsy,if your just at the end of your family line your part gypsy a didicoy,but if your well and truley bred out for a generatrion your a gorja and know not of gypsy ways , i think all true gypsys wouled agree with me,a gypsy is who they are there ways the beliefs there supastions,others to me desend from fish and dust ,and what of God,merm, let a gypsy tell me i lie |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 23 Jun 2009 12:56 |
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Sure can answer that. Firstly, females are allowed to join the project.
The male line is by far, easier to trace then the direct female line. Every generation, females change surnames because of marriage, and paper trail tracing the female line while not impossible, is far more difficult.
But the project is open to females also, and or to men who wish to be mtDNA tested. There are projects who's only intent is to research the direct female lines and are making progress. But it is no easy task to paper trail trace the direct female lines and then use mtDNA testing to support their paper records, it can be done, and is being done but is more complicated.
Males can Y DNA test and mtDNA test because men carry both the Y and X chromosome, while females carry only the X chromosome.
mtDNA is not my strong suit, it a a bit more complicated and an area I have not studied well yet. The female line is just as important as the male line, but I understand the male line better is all lol.
mt Haplo M was just discovered in a female British Romany, and mt Haplo M is known to have come from Asia too.
I do hope to see many more females join the project too, or to have males be mtDNA tested either is fine.
Males typically keep the same surname, not always the case but typically they do, which makes tracing the male line in the paper records easier.
So we can follow a male line in the paper records and use that paper trail knowledge to compare Y chromosomes between males of the same surname to see if they shared a common male ancestor.
DNA testing was not intended to be used compare to men of another surname, but the Romany are not the typical group of people.
Myself and others have theorized that we believe only one group of Asians left India for Europe and that they were likely already related when they left Asia.
Some have said they believed there were multiple waves of immigrants, but when you start looking at the DNA evidence, DNA highly suggests many of us are distantly related.
Part of the problem is, some of the females in the project, could not specifically tell me tell me who their Romany ancestor was. Some were going on family history that they had a Romany connection in their tree, but did not know specifically who their Romany connection.
Mt Haplo M*, Haplo H, Haplo U2, Haplo U3b, Haplo U4, Haplo U5 have been found among ladies who claimed to have Romany ties.
That is far to wide of a range of mtDNA Haplo Groups being found among supposed Romany females. The one in mt Haplo M is the one I am convinced of, not just because of her Haplo M, but because she has first hand knowledge of who her Romany connections are, unlike most of the other female participants in the project who "presumes" they have Romany ties based only on word of mouth history.
Here direct female line is as follows:
Mother-Davies
Grandmother-Lewis
Great grandmother-Riles
Great Great Grand mother - unknown
That is far more information then all the other female participants provided me. And Davies and Riles were the 2 specific surnames of great interest for this project. So we now know this Riles > Lewis > Davies branch on the female side does in fact carry an Asian female Haplo Group. And this is the first solid evidence we have in the project to date. Some of the female participants carry European female Haplo Groups, not Asian Haplo Groups, so the only conclusion I can make is their direct female ancestor was European in origin, not Asian in origin. And like I said, the majority were not certain who their Romany connection was in their trees, and that is the reason we find so many different mt Haplo Groups in the project, because the participants themselves were not always certain who their Romany connection was because they had not researched their own family trees well to know who that Romany connection was to even know if it was on the male or female side of their tree.
So it is going to take ladies who do know specifically who their Romany connections are to be of help to the project. Not knowing who your Romany ancestors are, actually hurts the project because some have not paper trail traced their trees to know if they even have a Romany connection.
I could be a little more restrictive with the project and make some females prove their Romany connections if they do not have a known Romany surname, but I do not wish to put restrictions on the project if I can avoid it. I can only hope the participants know their Romany connections and not guess that they have Romany connections. For those who actually knows who their Romany connections are, helps regardless what Y or mt Haplo Groups they carry.
But understand who I am dealing with here, not all have first hand personal knowledge of who their Romany ancestors were, some whom are being tested on the female test, are going by word of mouth history that they had a Romany connection some where in their tree, but have no first hand knowledge of who that person was. And then are disapointed to learn they carry European mt Haplo Groups.
We must look to Asians mainly India mt Haplo Groups to see which mt Haplo Groups Indians and Asians carry in them in order to try to find Asian mt Haplo Groups among the direct female Romany lines. mt Haplo M is found in India, so we have identified one direct Indian female lineage in the project already.
What will be learned from testing the females, I simply do not know because I do not have enough evidence to work from yet.
Those male Romany lines who carry European Y Haplo Groups, would be encouraged to mt DNA test too because it would seem their Romany connection came in on their female side.
I do look forward to having more females in the project one day, especially females who know their Romany family history who can be of great help in explaining their connections. The more I know, the easier it is to see other patterns among the many families. As I start to see patterns, I can then follow that pattern to suggest one participant order another test, and or ask for a surname in their tree who is not a part of the project yet, to ask them to be tested.
There is a pattern here, and given enough patterns to follow, so much more can be learned by following the patterns in our DNA.
Having the DNA participants exchanging family trees will help all of us because it will allow for many more connections in all of our trees because a good many of us are related to one another over and over again over history.
Who knows, a specific marker mutation may one day be found among Romany females too, just like the marker mutation we have found among the men.
But until a lot more males and females join the project, those discoveries will elude all of us.
I do highly suggest all participants try to upgrade their tests to the highest marker levels when possible. Some of the discoveries were not made until the tests were upgraded to the best kit.
So females in the project should consider going to the mtDNA plus kit one day in the future, males should consider going to the 67 marker level with the addition of the Deep Clade SNP test when possible. So much more was learned once multiple men when to the 67 marker level with the addition of the new SNP test that we simply could not have learned had they not done so.
But funding is also an issue, especially in this day and age with the economy the way it is. This is why I set the project up to accept donations in any dollar amount to be accepted. Even on my very limited income, my wife and I donated $10.00 towards the project and when enough donations are collected, free tests can be ordered for those who want to test, but can not afford to test. And the donations can go towards upgrading tests of current participants.
Like Lee, he has tested at the 12 maker level. I would one day like to see his test upgraded to the 67 marker level to see if he too carries this null value marker DNS 425 = 0 like the rest of us, and to see who he is more closely matched to among the current participants. But Lee can not afford to upgrade, it took all they had to get the 12 marker test ordered. So even small donations to the project adds up, and will one day allow upgrades and free tests to be ordered which will help the participants and the project at the same time.
There is currently $47.00 in the general fund, so we are only a few dollars short from being able to upgrade Lee from the 12 marker kit to the 25 marker kit.
There are 100's of us online, and if everyone only donated $1.00 a month or every few months, that adds up and allows the project to order free tests or upgrades. I never see a penny of the donations, all donations are kept in a general fund with FTDNA and they spend that money on the participant that I tell them to. So FTDNA has the money, not me. So when there are enough funds available in the general fund, I send FTDNA an email to order a new kit, or to order an upgrade. I am already at the 67 marker level and have Deep Clade SNP tested, funds will never ever be used on my kit, just to be clear.
I have the web page set up to show who made what donations and when that donation was made, and how that money was spent.
I do that so there is zero questions where the money goes. I do this all for free, I do not make one penny from doing this project.
Upgraded kits are only done so with the participants permission.
A Lock(e) researcher sent me a check in the mail to donate to the Locke DNA project that I also run. I had to mail that check back to them with instructions to make it out to FTDNA because I can not accept any donations made directly to me. So let me be very clear here, no donations are to be sent to me, to follow the instructions on the web site if you wish to make a donation. That is always the first thing asked of me, what do I get out of this.
Nada, Zero, Zilch! I get the satisfaction that I am helping document our family trees with the use of DNA testing. And I am helping do some of the paper trail research when I have the time.
Understand this, I am disabled and now in a wheel chair, and on a fixed income. I am not allowed to earn an income while on disability, I would risk loosing my disability if I were getting paid for this project. Just not worth it to me to loose my disability check, so I do this all for free out of the goodness of my heart for the greater good. I faught for 2 years to get on disability, no way will I risk loosing it.
Genealogy and genetic genealogy allows me to do something that I like doing, to keep my mind active and to keep me from going stir crazy from sitting around all day long! lol. I just got my wheel chair, and am not far from getting ramps to allow me to go outside, and will have a lift installed on my vehicle soon to allow me to go anywhere I want to go. Being cooped up in the house for the last 2 years is more then I can bear. Not being able to go outside kills me. But I got a ton of research done in the last 2 years because I only had the computer and TV to keep my mind busy.
But I am almost set up to be able to start traveling again, to go camping if I want, to just go to the mountains or lakes for a day trip.
My only motive is to learn more about who we are as a people, to learn who our ancient ancestors were, and to better paper trail trace each of our trees.
Anyway, yes the ladies are just as welcome to join the project, this is not an all male project.
Don
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vince smith
Posts:19
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| 23 Jun 2009 15:23 |
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Leachim,
No Gypsy man is ging to argue with your point. i'm a day to day travelling man and 99% would say the same thing. Since I was about fourteen I started to ask myself why some of the people among us were so dark (by no means all) and why we used the language that we do.I started reading the old george Borrow books and other books that said we were of Indian origin. Since then I always wondered if it was true. I know in my family there are all sorts of Travelling people as well as the odd Gorja here and there. But the main origin of the Romany people was always something that interested me. Getting a living takes up most of a Travelling man's time but all of us who come on line just want to know that little bit more. That's why you and i bother to join Journey folki.
I ended up reading virtually every book on the subject when I was younger. i kept that to myself. You and I know, a lot of Travellers would say " look at that Dinlo, reading a book about Travellers when he only has to look out of the trailer window to see as many Gypsies as he wants". LOL
None of these books could tell me what I wanted to know. Some said Egypt, some India, some Ireland and your 100% right pal, it dosen't really make one iota of difference. We all know who we are. I know a Gypsy man as soon as I loolk at him and no matter where he comes from and I'm sure you do too.
I just had this burning desire to know where it was that 1,000 0r so years ago, where did my race come from. So I took Don's DNA test. It goes against alot of what I've been taught but I wanted to know. Each to his own, but I was so interested to find out that Lees, Stanleys, Boswells, Ingrams, Smiths. Locks, Burtons, Campbells, Baileys, were all showing Indian DNA. I've grown up with some of these families and even the blond and fair ones, sometimes have a foreign look about them. So for me that explained a lot of things.
I don't think Don is saying that people who have not lived the life are on the strength of a DNA test gonna turn up on Appleby or Doncaster in an open lot LOL. What I have found since I've corresponded with Don is that his family,l although losing their Romany identity in the mellting pot of the southern USA over centuries have maintained so many ways and morals that Gorjas wouldn't understand.
I have West country Locks in my family tree. So does Don. Leachim, picture this for one minute, two Gypsy men out hawking 300 years ago. Muskras turn up, one gets lelled,the other one prasters. One gets sent out to be a slave in America. The other continues to wander in Britain. 300myrs later, one is bought up in a trailer, hawks for a living and goes to every fair and races that he can afford to get to. The other is a citizen of the USA who amongst other things is an authority on horses and finches.
We both carry the gene H1a. Genetically we are both Gypsies. If you and me picked Don up in a transit and took im round every ground in the country, they would say nice man, but a Gorja man. They wouldn't say that about you or me, so I know what you're saying. What Don is saying is that in real terms the only difference was that long ago one man got caught and one got away,..........I think he has a point and I'm happy to call him a Romnichal Brother. |
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Ditch
Posts:48
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| 23 Jun 2009 15:51 |
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Sod it, Don; I'd never yet realised ye were in USA!  This further complicates things, for me.
Never mind. Could ye please list the prices ($) of each of these progressive tests? Might help some of us to know what we're up against, financially.
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 23 Jun 2009 16:25 |
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helo Vince, you will go where your heart leads you,i like your mind and see no wrong,but dont be trhinking as me a gypsy, alls good,i have my own mind and love who i am in my own mind and need no body as it was drove into me as others dont know,isent it great to be proud,they say now a proud thing is the wrong way,well i was raised to be proud and will die that way to,lel ya cherus mandi gins ya rokker, butthink of this but first the date is what 23 of the six 09, dordi then take a look at what the mush says about DNA
now a stone can be seen as a stone in science, a piece of coal can be seen as a once lost forset evan thoe it looks like stone,mud also intime thoe will become rock stone yet it was once just soil eroded by rain millions of years ago, yet now scoince tells us it is rock for elements like iron particles where cemented in the mud yet now rock is rock,,on this day now i will destroy the thery of DNA, ,did you just read above how a man can trace is Mother and Farther through Dna YET Monision only carries the x one,
now today DNA is destryoed, to say a man as a Mother and aFarther yet a Woman can only be from a x well no one wouled believe such a statemant , this now i will tell you as the truth,
you are not DNA, never was never will be, you are your relations your uncles your GrandPerants and maybe five generations or such, after this there comes like a convayer belt you can not be every thing of every one this is proved in why you see blond haired gypsys ,they come from not hundreds of yeares ago but just a few generatiuond back yet there gypsys and you can see in there bonestructure that they look just like there old old Folk, but there blond,you are about several generations back and thats it ,thats what seperates us from beying tested just like coal or rock for rock and coal have no soul we have spiret and soul and are every changing, yes there are things that bind all gypsys and no gypsy needs to prove no point but again i ask you to look at the post that says only men come from a Father and a Mother and a Woman not , dordi science is young and if this worled servives your life then i will tell you DNA will one day be proved wrong as the worled was first thought to be round,
every few years and generations you take on in your heans the the looksand ways of your nearest people, that is the way of life ,one day some are dark then someone breeds will some one lighter then the children look lighter ,some get throught back geansa generation or so and maybe dark but on the hole you are what your last five or so generations are, thats just the way of it this DNA will one day be shown for the dead soul rock it is remember this date for it died today and the gypsy lives, i dont have relations like you show in your DNA daterbase, my family line comes from the north and scotland, Wilshers, Hartleys and more common names you wouled know but you wouled not ever here of my Breeds, i wasalways told the truth and hope you think i speak the truth, your more than a gypsy than me but thats just the way but i speak with truth for others hopfully to love there long gone Family who no one respects or speaks for now, this was my teaching in b.lood not dna, ,
all the best |
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vince smith
Posts:19
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| 23 Jun 2009 17:07 |
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Hello Leachim,
I don't know it all Brother, but I do know the Hartleys and Wilshers are from the same race of people as I am and my misses is. ( she's from Abernethy).
I think, like you, that mankind as a whole thinks it knows alot more than it does. maybe in a year or two science will see DNA is not what we thought and some other theory will replace it.
as you say, it's up to each man or woman to decide for himself . Your right as well to say that what matters is what we are today and we don't need anyone else to tell us different.
good debate though and I know Don's gonna come back with something. He'll probably be chingering me LOL .
It's this kind of chat that makes these bords worthwhile.
all the best. |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 23 Jun 2009 18:45 |
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I just got an email from FTDNA telling me they have extended their sale for another week. So for you males who are interested, you can get a 37 Y DNA kit and a mtDNA test in one for 50% reduced rate until June 30th 09
"""In the last few days we have received several e-mails from group
administrators asking us to extend our "Unparalleled 50% Promotional
Discount" Y-DNA37+mtDNA for $119 (the regular project price is $248 – a
reduction of more than 50%!!), as many people are only now becoming
aware of the promotion.
We have decided, therefore, to extend it
until June 30th, 2009. Kits must be paid by July 7, 2009. In order for
the most people take advantage of this promotion, we encourage you to
post the following link in your family messages boards, blogs, and mail
lists, as well as forward to people when they ask you where to place
the order:
www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=RomnchelYDNA&Code=H75436"""
Project price for a Y 12 marker kit is $99.00 plus tax, so this promotion of a 37 marker Y kit with the mtDNA is perfect for many males who wish to test their male and female side. $119.00 is a great savings! But ends June 30th.
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 24 Jun 2009 01:32 |
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Not certain what your point is, but DNA is not destroyed. It is passed down from father to son, mother to daughter, generation after generation.
My grand father is 88 years old and can not read or write, but after I explained to him how DNA works, even he at his age understands the basic concept.
Believe me when I tell you this, I get several emails every week from England asking me about the project, there is far more interest and understanding about this project then your giving credit for.
I do not pretend to know it all, I don't. But me as well as many others are willing to try to learn. As much as I know, I have a long way to go yet and still have much to learn. But to say no one will believe it, I think you are wrong on that because the emails I get from England asking me for more information does tell me there is far more interest then you are giving credit for.
Believe it or not, up to you. But the simple facts of biology taught even in middle school tells you males carry the Y and X chromosome, and females carry
XX chromosome. Google it if you need convincing lol.
Do not take my word for it folks, if you are capable of getting on the internet, your capable of going to google to find web sites which speaks of simple biology and DNA. When in doubt, go do the research yourselves. You can sit and argue with me till your blue in the face, but until you go do the reading yourself on this very subject, and see what the experts have to say on the subject, then maybe you and others will be convinced.
I do not care if you or anyone takes my word for it, I do not care if you see me as an outsider and will never be accepted by you. You are not a Lock(e) and not my kin anyway, to me you are the outsider lol. My British Locke cousins actually came and found me! They contacted me asking if we were kin.
They were searching the internet and found my web site and contacted me, not the other way around. This is British Romany Gypsy Lock(e)'s in England who came searching for me. They have accepted me for who I am, American or not, I am a Romany Locke and they see that I am kin to them and openly accept me.
I do not need you to understand that, or to accept that lol. We are Locke's and we do accept each other regardless how you or anyone feels about it.
To us, you are the outsider and we do not need permission from anyone in anything we choose to do.
One Briitsh Locke cousin has already DNA tested, and another is considering it now. That is our choice in the matter, not yours. We choose to find our long lost kin so we can reconnect with each other out of love for our family. Through no fault of our own, our familys were torn apart by the Briitsh and Scottish governments, if anyone is to blame it is the governments, not our ancestors or their descendants.
You may choose to not accept your American cousins, or Canadian cousins or Australian cousins, but many others will. Many do understand what happened not so long ago that tore our families apart. Some of my British cousins have put themselves in my shoes and do understand and have sympthay for what happened to our families and do understand for the deep seeded desire to try to reconnect with kin.
If it takes DNA testing to help make that connection then that is our choice to do so, it is done to help others reconnect because certain historical events took place that tore our families apart. If you can not accept that or understand that, then I do not know what else to say.
Those with closed hearts and closed minds will never understand I guess. But I do not ask for permission, I do not ask for acceptance, but even a little sympathy and understanding would be nice once in a while lol. :)
For those of us who choose to go down this path, I only ask that you respect our wishes to do so with out being looked down upon.
We are simply exersizing our god given rights to choose our own path in life. If you or anyone does not respect that, then I say look deeper in your heart to have a better understanding of what really occurred not so many years ago.
Romany have been torn apart by the governments. Some were taken as children and adopted out. Others were rounded up and forcefully transported, some of which were sold in to slavery. There can be no misunderstanding here, we are seeking our kin because of no faults of our own, if there is to be any blame, blame it on England and Scotland anti Gypsy laws. Good for you who were not affected by this history, a good many others were affected and it has left a hole in our hearts, so understand our desire to reconnect with our kin. We all have a god given right to seek our our own kind to reconnect with our kin, and do not need your permission or opinion to do so.
Do not hold us in a lesser light only because I am now an American, if you do you are denying Romany history and allowing England and Scotland to get away with Romany abuses that took place in the 1600's and 1700's where they forcefully tore our families apart.
Do not accept me, no skin off my nose, your not a Locke to start with, no offense. I do not need you to be accepting, do not seek your permission, do not need you to be understanding. But I do ask that you respect our decisions which is our's to do so with. I repsect your decisions regardless which path in life you choose for yourself. I only ask that if you do not know Romany history in England and Scotland to know that a good many were shipped off to other lands through no fault of their own, to not view us only as Americans or Canadians or Australians, to view us as your cousins because we are in fact your cousins, your flesh and blood and our DNA and paper records proves that fact.
You can not imagine my disapointment to see some look down upon their American cousins with out knowing me or my family first.
This distrust of American's is to distrust your own kin. America was built with British immigrants! To view us as below you is simply insulting.
America won the war, yet I hold no grudges for either side. What happened happened it is history. Ohhh your an American that changes things. In your mind, not mine and not in the minds of many who know I am their flesh and blood cousin.
That very same attitude hurts the Stanley's, Smith's, Cooper's, Broadways, Ayres, Boswell's and many others who migrated to the USA later and are now 4th and 6th generation American's. So your telling them too because they are now Americans that changes things? In a very real Romany tradition, they followed Romany tradition and did what Romany do, go to new lands of oppertunity. How would British Romany feel if their Hungarian Romany cousins said the same things about you all, ohhh your a Brit, that changes things. To see us as anything else other then being Romany is insulting, not only to me, but to many of the families who migrated to the USA, willingly and unwillingly. So in my mind, to hold those who willingly and unwillingly migrated to other lands, are lesser Romany then British Romany? Was that your meaning when it was said "Ohh Your American, that makes a difference" ?
No it does not make a difference, at least it did not make a difference to the British Romany Locke's when they contacted me, did not make a difference to Vince and many other folks because they see past personal bias and understand that England and Scotland both forced our families to be torn apart.
Understand what you did with your words to me. "Your an American, that makes a difference" You in fact just insulted all the Locke's, Stanley's, Cooper's, Boswell's, Evans, Lee, Harrison, Joles, Bryer, Ayres, Bailey, Campbell, Ingram, Smith, Whorton / Wharton / Warton, Butler, Hill, Broadway, Lovell, Palmer and many other families whom are all now in the USA. As well as in Canada, Australia and else where. Your words are very hurtful to us because you view us as Americans, not as your cousins. Ok to insult me personally, but you in fact just insulted most of the oldest and largest families of them all because they are now Ameircan's too, and are viewed differently by you. And many American Romany of British and Scottish Ancestry are I am sure, are going to be hurt by your views that we are different in your eyes. If we are different now, blame England and Scotland, not us. It was their abuses who forced many of us to live in other nations.
Had you viewed us as your cousins, not simply Americans there would be no objections. Understand your words can cut very deeply even if that was not your intention. It is unfair of you or anyone to say such hurtful things to us only because for what ever the reasons were, our ancestors willingly or against their wills, came to the USA or Canada, or Australia or where ever. I do not need your permission to be Romany, I do not need your acceptance, and I do not need your rude comments only because you view me as an American.
I do not ask or plead or beg to be accepted, take me as I am or leave me be. Those cousins who have met me, know I am one hell of a nice man and accept me for who I am. But to view me as only an American was as far as I see it, intended as an insult and I took it as such.
I do not view you as a Brit because in my eyes, we are one and the same. Those of you who see us as Americans and not as Romany are clearly missing the point that we are in fact your flesh and blood kin, the paper records and DNA testing agree with that fact. So who here is biased then? Me or you? lol.
I see us as cousins, you see me as an American. Pay attention here, my Romany ancestors were banished out of England around 1728, three of the grand sons faught in the Revolutionary War. I could have the exact same attitude against you all, ooh your just a Brit that makes a difference lol.
So lets not be rude about it here folks, kin is kin and to cut kin bone deep by looking at us differently only because of where we now live, means we followed Romany tradition, our wheels now roll on different soils and we made the best of it. We survived the boat trip, some of us survived slavery, we survived and thrived in new lands, and if that is not the Romany way of life, I don't know what is. My grand father was the last in my direct line to have traveled by wagon, and did so through many multiple states in his life time. To view him as any less of a traveling Romany is insulting to me. He is 88 years old and still is able to drive his big motor home to travel from state to state, he even just traveled 650 miles from New Mexico to Colorado a few days ago in the motor home at 88 years old. almost 89 years old! We are Romany and in many ways continue to live the Romany life style in our own ways, we just live differently because we are in different lands is all. Spanish Gypsis, Hungarian Gypsies, Romanian Gypsies and all across Europe all live differently, does not make us differnt. We learn to adapt, we learn their languages, we learn their occupations, or continue our own occupations, but no matter where we go in life, we are Romany. One is no better no less Romany then another, and to view your American Romany cousins as only Ameicans and believe that makes a differnce, then I have to question your motives. It is possible you did not intend for your words to be an insult, but as you see I took it as an insult, because to me, to be viewed any differently only because of where I now live, no matter what your meaning was, is an insult to all Romany world wide who have by choice or against our wills, live in different lands now. Romany were not always British, remember that, you too are immigrants to that nation, no different then they are immigrants to every nation they now live. Do not see yourself as gods gift to Gypsies, you too are an immigrant, you too lived a differnt life then your European cousins. What ties us all together is we are all kin to one another no matter where we now hang our hats.
Understand your own history and be more accepting of your cousins regardless where the now live.
I do not see you as different, so why in the world would you see me as different?
My Romany Lock ancestor was British before he was banished to the American Colonies, not his fault, blame British anti Gypsy laws. So I ask you to look deeper in your heart, to understand what England and Scotland did to our families. To see me as differnt is insulting which is worse to me, because it is my own people playing this personal bias! Romany is Romany no matter where they live, no matter if they are following tradition or not, we are flesh and blood cousins. To believe you are more Romany then me, is like having a Hungarian Romany say he is more Romany then you, it is an insult that cuts right to the bone and it is unwarranted. Your words cut me right to the bone brothers and sisters. But that is ok, I have been cut to the bone more then once and survived.
Ok to insult me, I am a big man with big shoulders. But do not be expected to be invited to my house lol. Vince come on over brother! Your welcome in my home any day of the week, stay as longs as you like rent free!
Romany on sites or in homes or over seas makes no differnce to me, Romany are Romany no matter what the situation is. Maybe it makes a difference to some of you, but then you are close minded with a close heart. My Christian upbringing taught me to be accepting of others, obviously many of us were raised very differently, which does not make us good or bad, just raised differently and in different lands.
I am Romany like it or not, I do not need your permission to be who I
am, and I come from the old family that dates back to the 1600's in
England, so tell me again who the outsider is! lol. Tell me again who
is different here! I know who my Romany ancesors are, I can trace them
back to the 1670's and I am a Romany Lock. So go ahead and say it
again, that I am just an American, I am differnt, I am of the old
family to insult me you insult all Romany, say it again! lol. But I forgive your words, I was taught to forgive, to not hold a grudge.
I have already proven British and Scottish Romany have been in the American Colonies since the 1690's, and DNA testing confirms that fact.
The paper records clearly speak of Romany being forced to the Colonies, and to have some of you clearly denying our kinship, or to view us as lesser Romany then you, cuts tens of thousands of us across the world to the bone because your views are twisted and are very harsh.
Again, maybe you did not intend for it to be an insult, but I do not see it any other way. It appeared to be an insult and I took it as such.
"Ohh your an Amercan, that changes things" In your mind only brother or sister, in your mind only. Your personal view is twisted and closed hearted as I see it.
I say open your mind, open your heart, learn about British and Scottish history in regards to what really happened to our families, and then come say that to me again, your an American, that changes things. I have read the history, I am doing the paper trail research, maybe you are not and do not know all that has taken place?
Folks in England have tried telling me we can't trace our family trees because they did not marry in the church. I proved them wrong and provided them with many marriage and christening records. Many other web sites like Romanygenes and other sites has proven it can be done too.
Folks in England told me Romany and Travelers did not migrate to the USA, again I proved them wrong and provided you all with the USA census records that clearly speaks of a good many who migrated here.
But is seems no matter what I do, no matter how much research I share, no matter how much I can prove, I am viewed differently and I say, who are you to judge? Who made you my judge and jury? I need not defend myself to anyone, I am Romany Lock(e), I know who I am, I know who my ancstors are.
I do not hide behind alias screen names online, I do not lie about my real name, I am honest and open, so much so my home address has been on my web site since 1995!
I am not ashamed to be who I am, I do not fear anyone, I have no reason to hide for any reason. That is far more then many of you can say about yourselves lol :)
I am rather tired of having to defend myself, to have to defend my family honor by outsiders who are not even related to me. I am an outsider to you, ok with me because I have no personal issue with outsiders. But understand, you are an outsider to me and not a Romany Lock(e). But I am different in this respect, I do not see you differently only because you live in England or where ever, in my eyes we are one and the same people, just with different histories because some of our ancestors were banished to other lands is all. I do not judge you like you judge me, why is that?
Maybe because I have done nothing but read about Romany history, and do understand many of the events that took place that tore our families apart, and if there is blame to be made, to blame the governements involved who did such acts against our people, to not blame our ancestors for not running fast enough from the law and got caught. And it wasn't always the law who caught them either! Bounty hunters were once paid a bounty for each Gypsy they could catch! So darn it, learn your own darn history before you make wise cracks and judge others. If you truly understand British and Scottish Romany history, you would not look down your noses at me and the rest of the families who were banished, or left to seek better oppertunities.
It is Romany tradition to make the best of it against all odds, and we survived and thrived in our new lands, that sould be commended, not looked down upon.
You all should be darn proud of my direct ancestor! He survived the boat ride, he survived being a slave / indentured servant / criminal, he raised a family and survived bears, cougars, snakes, nasty weather, and even Indian raids! And more importantly, he survived against racial hate, even here in the Colonies. He is my hero! He survived against all the odds! If that is not a true Romany then I don't know what one is. It took a stong will power to survive all the things he faced in his life time. He survived the Revolutionary War too!
The Romany who came to the states between 1850 to early 1900's were free people, they left England on their own accord, they had the freedom to return to England if that was their choice. And some did return to England, but a good many stayed and are now 4th and 6th generation American Romany of British ancestry. And many are of the old families and to say that changes things only because we are now American's is an intentional insult to us.
That is something me and many of the other families will never understand, that our own flesh and blood sees us as different now only because we followed Romany tradition and moved to other lands and have survived and thrived in our new lands. Maybe some of you forget traditions to move on, to move to new lands. It took a lot of guts and survival instincts to move to new lands! America was and in many respects still is a wild nation with many wild forests that remain untouched. Many of the threats from 200 years ago very much remain the same threats here today!
Bear and Cougar come in to our town every year, and most every year someone is killed by bears and cougars. So some of the threats remain much the same as it was 200 and 300 years ago. I have personally seen bear and cougar in the wild, and even as accustomed as I am to them, they will still scare the heck out of you and make your hair stand on end! lol. Romany in the USA, Canada, Australia, South America, Jamaica, Bermuda, Barbados and else where had to face whole new fears on top of racial haters. Unless you have been to the wild woods here in the USA, you can not understand the none stop dangers that still remain here even today. Canadian and Australian Romany also faced many fears and dangers in their own nations. It took very strong people to survive in such harsh conditions, yet our ancestors did so! Do not dare look down on us, our ancestors faced dangers that you all in England did not have to face, believe me. One of my own Lock's was killed during an Indian Raid, tell me British Romany faced Indian attacks and I will call you out on that! lol. Romany in Australia faced many similar dangers, but had many more poisonous critters to deal with. The USA has our share of them too, but nothing compared to Australia. For anyone to say we are different, where we live makes a difference, I say hogwash!
Our ancestors who were forced to go to other lands, faced more then just racial hates! Our ancestors faced very harsh weathers, poisionsous critters, bears, cougars, wolves, aligators, crockadiles, Indians, and much more. You all had established road systems, our ancestors often had to pave their own roads because where many of our ancestors lived, there were no established roads.
USA, Canada, Australia are fairly new nations, and did not have big cities, road systems and such things already in place. They did after many generations, but did not at the start. People here like Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett and tons of others paved the pathes to open up new areas. The Romany Lock's traveled with Daniel Boone and family from Virginia to Kentucky and George Boone a Nephew to Daniel Boone married Hester Lock, one of my kin.
William Lock and one of the Boone's died during an Indian Raid trying to defend their families. So please do not look down upon us only because we are Americans, we faced things that you can't even imagine! You simply do not understand hard life until you have been forced to go to an uncharted nation where everything is wild and can kill you in a second, and still face racial hate on top of all that! I know first hand what it means to live in the desert where only weeds and catus grow, and to turn that soil in to productive land to live off of. I know what it means to hunt for my meat! I know what it means to go camp for weeks at a time in some of the most remote places in the USA and survive. I know what it is like to go hunting and be lost in a snow storm and get frost bit on my fingers, toes, ears and nose and yet still survive. I know how to hunt with only a knife, I know how to survive in most any conditions because I have done it. I know what it is like to eat rabbit, squriel, snake, birds, deer, elk, fish because I have hunted and fished for my food since I was a young boy. I was one of a very few city kids to have my own rifle by age 11. Not many other kids knew how to hunt, fish, camp, and survived out in the world, I did because I was raised outdoors. So do not shame me with your nose looking down on me. I may not have lived your life, but I have very much lived life in the same manor, just differently and in a differnt nation. What is amusing to me is, I actually understand you better then you understand me lol.
I still have my first 22 rifle which is nearing 30 years old now and is as new today as it was when I got it. I still have my same hunting knife that is as sharp today as the day I got it. And even though I now use a wheel chair, I am perfectally able to survive in the wild because of my experience. I can walk, just can't walk long distances. My own father knows what it means to work the cotton fields when few others were willing to work the cotton fields.
You can talk the talk but until you have walked the walk, do not look down upon others. Romany did what Romany do, they by force or freely migrated to other lands and learned to adapt and survived and thrived, if that is not Romany in your eyes, I say go see the eye doctor! lol.
Donald Locke
I am Romany Lock of the old family, nuf said!
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 24 Jun 2009 14:01 |
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helo Vince,
personly i think God created the known univerce,everything in it to,in my mind theres no dout in that,some would say the storys of the Bible to be asact,some wouled believe in creation but follow the science root and say God did create the universe but life as evoled through natral selection,the rules of the jungle ,the strongest servive,these two thoughts still have great strenght in the power of Faith,
others seek there answer to life in knowledge of higher power yet time as shown us these people wither no more than a second ticks in a life shown to lack in future,time and time again they have been sent but history only shows us there great moment to be the false dawn that only lasted as they claped,
i wouled say there where cave men type people, i have no dout in that, people did evolve in structure of body and languge,we all have common ancesters,we all come from these people ,ultamity we are all related,i think dna is only a minute part of the geans that make people who they are today,science can tell by drilling holes in dead peoples teeth where they drank water from,they can test there bones and say they ate grass from this place or that,science tells us they found cave men type folk who ate grass in a type long gone and match it to people now,
where these gyps people no,they where just primitive folk evolving as life shows us it does,the gypsy are who they are from the time they became gypsys,all cave men are related,the chineeze i was told tryed to say at one point that there race where a seperate race but i was told this was found to be untrue,they say there where certain types of cave men who romed the worled there name i forget ,but the ones that live on this planet now lerned to speak and ultamitly conquered the reast and through this type the people of the worled spread through out the known countrys,
everyone comes from these thes are your ancesters if you seek such a ritchness,over time people who champion ritchness like hitler have tryed to clasify there people as different and not of the truth ,but the truth is we are all related,there is no begining in india ,
i think the gypsy became the gypsy that they are from the time they had the knowledge to rome this worled,they moved to turkey i think ,grease, spain,france ,and much much more countrys,i think on these traveles they sometimes mixed with people of thoes countrys and new blood became apart of the gypsy,that is why i saw on the web studies saying thoudands and thousands of romany who where members of old romany family had different dna, who wouled say that these where not romany,you couled say they where all once cave men now that wouled not be lieing but i think the gypsy is the gypsy,weather he came in the time of turky or the tyme of spain,
if your born out and your family gone your a gorja till death, if your born in and apart of the gypsy your a gypsy and no dout in that evan if you have spanish dna from the year 1700, a gorja with indian dna is a gorja, a gypsy with hungerain dna is a gypsy,and cave men are cave men,
the answer does lay in the geans of all your folk some longer back than others but your apart of them all,i have seen Smith Women folk who look just like there Farther,its the truth far relatives of mine and you just know by there bone structure that there a Smith, they looked nothing like there Mother, i tell you this dna as it is stated is dead,look to the people who studie geans in the right fastion if you want answers to questions of who you are, but why wouled you need such and answer, did you not see the loving arms of your Mother as she loved you as a child,did you not see the wisdom of your Farther as you grew from boy to man,these are you people and they came from there people,
i believe in God myself and have many thoughts but i know a wrong when i hear one,i,m of to turkey my self tomorow and will try and put some photos on when i get back theres some of me in spain and the west indies on the photo page at the top of this page,
all the best to you Vince |
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vince smith
Posts:19
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| 24 Jun 2009 16:02 |
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Hello Leachim.
I agree with all my heart that God is all that matters at the end of the day. I believe he created us all and i don't think he's gonna reveal how in this life. I saw a film yesterday in which Galileo was being tried as a heretic because he was trying to work out how God created the universe. He argued at his trial that he knew that nothing was possible unless it was through God, he felt that god wanted him to further ther knowledge of mankind so that we could be closer to God.
My Wife is a born again Christian, she tells me to leave the science to God and worry about pleasing him. Ithink you both have a point LOL
Enjoy Turkey, I haven't been but I'm told it's good. Some of the Barrs I know just got back and me buckland mate is off this week.
Enjoy yourself and safe journey. |
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kilby
Posts:520
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| 24 Jun 2009 16:18 |
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helo Don, my american brother, i dont know who did upset ya so much bout ya beinan American gypsy but ya sure have taken it ti heart my friend, now i speek ony for meself on jf jus like evrybody else does an only reason i don reely talk bout dna is coz i don understand it an the reason for that is coz i don reellly feel a want or a need to understand it, i for one are quite happy wi what i am an who i am so i don feel a need to be botherin wi dna, that isnt to say that i dismisses it outa hand coz i know it has some very valuble uses but not inme own personal case, i see how ya write on here an i,d be tired to the bone puttin all them words on here an very big an learned words they are but not for me my frient.
my little way o lookin at these things is " if a dog is born in a stable it dont make it a horse, but a horse is a horse no matter where it was born "
now that makes sense to me an very easy it is too an thats bout as deep as i wants to get into things but about ppl lookin downon ya for bein an American well i ditnt know they did an for the little that its worth i certinly dont look down on anybody an hopes i never do, to my mind each an effry one of us is as good as each other , but no better, all best myfrient an like you i,ve never chopped an changed names anywheres on internet, jus ditnt feel a need to do that, take care an i wish ya luck with ya research into anythin ya heart desires to look into -----kilby------ |
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kilby
Posts:520
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| 24 Jun 2009 16:21 |
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| helo Leahcim , hope ya keepin well an up to ya eyes in work, ya mus be to go galavantin off to turkey ta sorlo , anyways, safe journey to you an yours----kilby---- |
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kilby
Posts:520
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| 24 Jun 2009 16:27 |
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helo Vince an tank you for ya shout on the vid from epsom, ya knows i,ll be down your way a week on fridy to meet up wi bunch o folki frients who i,ve met on here an i hopes to see ya while i,m down your way , god is good an us all meetin up on here is for a reason an thas for sure, we might not know that reason an maybe we not meant to know eh, anyways, take care an maybe we too will meet up -----kilby-----
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 24 Jun 2009 16:59 |
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| i will have a good time Vince,better if you where there Pal ,a dost of peev lol,dordi mandis shura will be paggered for sure, sal,i dont meen your wrong finding things out and the proud man you are and knowbody can take that away ,i hope you understand i dont meen no wrong in writing just having my say, hope to talk another day,i,m jumping straight in the sea when i get there, then eating thirty turkish delights chocolats, then dancing with twelve turkish belly dancers and then drinking turky dry of all the ale, then i,ll have a good sleep for me self lol ,right on the beach lol,then start again the same craik the next day ,dordi i,m a dingolo for sure, talk when i,m back or just see my great photos when i put them on lol |
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 24 Jun 2009 17:02 |
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| God bless you to, and your Wife |
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 24 Jun 2009 17:16 |
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| alls good Kilb, dordi your lerning the rokka now , sorla, dordi , auli i,m still at it ,been laying kerbs and tarmac but just for getting by, i think i,m getting to old now lo chasing around these shires, always wanted to do things and be me own fellow never quite got there thoe,its hard raising a Family in this day and age,bills bills bills,i dont claim bennifits yet see how others make a living of it,if your straight its hard to live right but thats the way,i quess your still flinging down the odd paver and telling some one there tiles need mending lol,it not a bad ole life if you dont weaken,thats a old saying,by the time i,m done i,ll see the worled and drink the place dry to lol, lol lol , i,ll have a safe journey to, thanks.......... |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 06/22/2009 7:24 AM |
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I agree with Jake to a point, but he obviously has not consulted with me on the matter to be up to date on the latest findings.
I fully agree that Romany were never a "pure" race, and on that
premise, there really is no such thing as a "pure" race anyone, we are
all humans and we all descended from human ancient ancestors. To
believe one is "pure" is a racist attitude and goes right in line with
Hitlers way of thinking.
That is not at all the point of this DNA project, to even suggest one
is more pure then another because there is no such thing to start with.
To me anyone who has Romany blood ties, is Romany or at the very least part Romany.
The point is, our ancient ancestors carried this rare Y Haplo Group H1a
in to Europe and as the family grew, they split up and went in
different directions, and my direct line ended up in England. I say my
direct line, the DNA evidence now highly suggests many of us likely
shared a common male ancestor as late as 44 generations ago. H1a is not
native to Europe, and the only Europeans to carry H1a, are the direct
Asian male descendants in Europe, whom we now know as the Romany. The
only Europeans found in H1a, have all been found to be Romany males.
Romany DNA testing has been done all over Europe by privately funded
DNA studies, and Y Haplo H1a is the most dominate Haplo Group found in
the vast majority of the clans, regardless their surnames, regardless
where they lived. I started this project because I wanted a Romany run
independent study to see if our project would agree with the privately
funded studies. And with the few who have tested so far, already agrees
with the privately funded studies. I do not take outsiders at their
word, I must see things with my own eyes, but my own study does seem to
agree with their studies.
But my study has taken it to a far higher level then the privately
funded studies because we have access to far better testing then they
had.
My project has the 67 marker test available to us and the new Deep
Clade SNP test available to us. The privately funded studies only
tested 10 to 12 markers, we are testing up to 67 markers! They could
only say we were in Haplo H, my project has proven we are in fact in
H1a which is a sub group of H.
My project has discovered something of great interest that no one else
knew about. I have identified a specific marker in common among Romany
males in H1a.
This project is not about proving who has more Romany in them and who doesn't, I only care about who does have Romany in them period.
And anyone who tries to play that mental game with me to try to say they have more Romany blood in them then another person, I say they better go research their own family tree before making such statements because we all have European ties in our trees, and likely did long before they entered England and Scotland.
The point is, H1a is not native to Europe, it is native to Asia, mainly India with some found in Pakistan who carries this rare H1a also.
By following the families who do carry H1a, we all can better document which were the direct Indian male lineages and all of us can by far better document our direct Asian male lineages. Romany very obviously married Europeans, who's children were part Romany and that European surname was then added to our Romany family tree. But we can not change how mother nature made us. If it was a European male who married a Romany and their children now being part Romany, took on the Romany way of life and not the European way of life, that new surname was added to our tree.
But regardless how many times that new addition marries back in to the Romany families, his forefathers were of European in origin and his male descendants can never carry H1a because he is European and must pass down his European Y Haplo Group to his male children.
So we will and already have found European male lineages whom very obviously married Romany females, but the males carry the European Y Haplo Groups like Haplo I1 and Haplo R1b1b2.
You can click on this link http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=yresults to the India DNA project and see with your own eyes. Indian Y Haplo groups greatly vary and Y Haplo R1a* is the most dominate Haplo Group in India, so to say Romany are related to all Indians is 100% false!
Indian males are found in Y Haplo R1a, Haplo J2, Haplo L, Haplo Q, Haplo R2 and other sorted Haplo Groups. So not even the Indians are all in the same
Y Haplo Groups meaning they are not all related as Jake presumes. Haplo H, H1 and H1a are also found in India
An Indian in say Y Haplo R1a can not be related to an Indian in Haplo J2, simply impossible. That is not to say on paper their 2 families did not marry at some point, but on a genetic level, it is impossible for the 2 men to have ever shared a common male ancestor because they carry different Haplo Groups. They of course may have shared a common male ancestor 20,000 to 40,000 years ago, but impossible to have shared one in modern history.
Send Jake my way, I would love to have this discussion with him one day! :)
I have tried to email him but got no response.
As Romany mingled more and more with Europeans, obviously more and more European surnames were added to our trees. But because no one recorded our European connections, today no one has any clue who was who. DNA can tell! Certain Haplo Groups are only found in certain areas of the world, but not found in other areas of the world, that was up until recent times with the mass migrations to many western nations.
Many are part Romany but are not able to 100% prove it, and this project will one day be able to help many help prove who their Romany ancestor was. Those of us who are found in H1a, can then share our family trees to help other cousins find their Romany roots. Those Romany who have since forgotten their Romany roots, can then rediscover their roots thanks to this project. Finding our cousins and documenting our trees is the goal of this project.
Remember England and Scotland history, they both created anti Gypsy laws and banished an untold number of Romany over seas against their wills.
Our families were torn apart and were never seen again. None of our trees can be complete unless we seek out our distant cousins in other lands.
Through no fault of their own, many were shipped to Jamaica, Barbados, Bermuda, the American Colonies and else where, and some were sold in to slavery.
This is your family as well as my family! No family was immune to being transported. All it took was to be caught hawking with out a license and one could be transported for life. Many were jailed, but a good many were transported too only to never be heard from again. Some did survive and were later released and thrived in their new lands that they were forced to call home now. But they were banished and could not legally return to England and Scotland for face the noose, or life in prison. Wonder why so many trees are at a dead end in England and Scotland? Because a whole lot of missing pieces of the puzzle were banished and shipped over seas against their wills. No tree can be complete unless we find our cousins and piece their branches back in to the tree. If even one branch is missing, trees can never be whole.
So do not look at me as an American, do not look at others as Jamaicans or what ever, look at us as your long lost cousins who were torn away and accept the facts that we did not all choose to live where we now live, that choice was made for many of us.
You must understand the history behind all of this, our families were torn apart, which is why so many can not go far in their family trees, because very important key family members who hold the clues to the rest of your tree is now in other lands, presuming they survived the trip over seas.
DNA testing has already discovered this specific marker in common among Romany males that I spoke of in my previous post. No one else discovered this fact, I did and only because people like me and Vince Smith and others looked past our fears and took the test for the greater good.
Anyone who even attempts to try to use this project to claim they are more Romany then anyone else, will quickly get an earful from me, because that is plain racist no differently then the way Hitler saw things.
The point is, for the very first time, we have the technology to give us some solid answers like never before.
We can in fact one day have solid proof to clearly identify about how many unrelated Romany males entered England and Scotland with a simple mouth swab DNA test. That is a long time mystery that can to a high degree be determined and backed up with science! We may one day find there were only a small handful of distinct unique DNA strings and that will tell us about how many unrelated Romany males entered the UK.
We may learn there were far more unrelated males, we may learn there were only a few, we simply do not know. But for the first time in history, we have the technology to start finding some of the answers if we just get past our fears for the greater good.
With only a couple of men tested so far, the things we have already learned is simply amazing! To know a Hungarian Romany carries the exact same marker mutation as Scottish and British and American Romany is very exciting news people! But I believe this is only the tip of the ice berg so to speak, I believe a lot more will be discovered as more men get tested, and DNA technology gets better. If enough men all through out Europe gets involved, we may one day be able to start mapping out a likely migration route, and that too would be very exciting! No one has been able to map out a migration route, but given enough DNA evidence between all Romany of Europe, it is very possible to start building that migration map!
And there maybe things to be discovered that even I have not considered! I do not know it all believe me lol.
I am sure I am over looking things because I do not fully understand it all either. But we are giving the DNA experts a glimpse in to our rare DNA and allowing them to find other answers on their own.
Many have told me, they are stuck in the paper records and have no where to turn, yes they do! DNA can even help identify those lineages who changed surnames! There are so many different aspects to this project it is hard to name everything that can happen.
DNA proved a close cousin of mine was adopted! He has since been added to the family tree! His adopted name is Graham, but he is in fact a Locke.
Do not sell this project short, there are so many things it can help with for all of our trees, and the majority of our trees are all tied to one another anyway, so the more we prove, the more we all learn together.
I am the first to openly to admit, my direct lineage is chocked full of marriages to European females, but mainly because my direct line was one of those banished and had little choice in the matter. I even have a little Cherokee Indian in me, nothing to be ashamed of, just a part of my family history is all.
I do carry this rare Haplo H1a, yet I am very obviously mixed! And if I carry H1a and I am mixed then it is impossible for anyone to claim "pure".
But I can say, my direct male ancestor was one of those men who left India for Europe who ended up in England. But that does not make me or Vince Smith or anyone else who carries H1a any more Romany then the next person. Look at it in a historical context, we have just identified 2 very specific lineages who's direct male ancestors came from Asia to Europe. That can not be viewed as a racist view, it must be viewed as a historical fact backed up with DNA evidence. And in that context as a historical fact, those who try to view it as a racist view, will get an earful from me because they very obviously have not a clue what they are speaking of and have not looked at their own family tree to get the facts straight.
I know I know, there are some who claim "pure" and I cringe just like many others who see such claims being said.
Hitler's who goal was to try to wipe out anyone he deemed impure to try to create a pure race people which is physically impossible with out causing humans to go extinct. So for anyone telling others they are pure, are very much acting in the same manor as Hitler himself and must be corrected by all of us.
I can only point you to the DNA studies going on, and if you go read what I read every day, you will see that what Jake and many other say is not always exactly correct. Their intentions are good don't get me wrong, but they need to come talk to the horses mouth, me to get the facts straight.
That is what kills me the most, no one comes to me to ask such questions to get their facts straight, they maybe close to the truth, but because of their reputations, what ever they say must be 100% true and that is a bit misleading on their part when they have not come to the one person who is actually doing the research.
I highly respect Jake and many others for all that they do, but not once has any of them come to me asking me to share my research, to explain why this project is so important for all of us to be involved in. We can use it to find more family connections, not only in England but around the globe, can use it to help prove who our ancient ancestors were. Can use it for many things that even I have not thought of yet.
And for Jake of all people to say Romany are related to all of India is false, yes we are related to some in India, but not all. All anyone has to do is look at the DNA studies and anyone can clearly see what I am talking about if they just give it a shot.
I say do not take my word for it, go review the many different studies going on and compare Romany DNA to the world and you come to your own conclusions.
But understand one thing here. I have shared my research with the world leaders in DNA technology. I have openly challenged the world DNA leaders to try to come up with a different answer. To my amazement, not one has attempted to challenge my research, all agree with me that the Romany has a very close relationship to Y Haplo H1a, and that the only Europeans in H1a are the Romany males.
I challenged the world leaders to try to come up with a different answer, I did so because I do not know it all, I wanted to see if anyone could come up with a different answer, but all agreed with my research, and to my amazement, are now calling me the worlds leading authority on Romany DNA because I have discovered things no one else did. So this is not my claims, I tried to get my research challenged and no one disagrees with my research. If the leaders in DNA technology do not challenge my work, and all agree with my research, who am I to question them! lol.
They all have told me I am on to something big, to keep headed in the direction I am headed! That is very encouraging to hear the leaders of DNA technology to prompt me to continue down this path, that I am on the right path! I am no DNA expert believe me, but I happened to see a specific pattern and only because a small handful of us took the plunge and got tested to the 67 marker level.
I am now following that specific DNA pattern in hopes it leads down a path to bigger discoveries!
I can not predict what the outcome will be, but I guarantee we will all learn together and will learn things that we all did not know before this technology was made available.
Don
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cheri-m
Posts:50
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| 06/22/2009 8:55 AM |
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| I have to admit looking at it from a novices point as I know little of DNA !but am I right in thinking that what you are saying is that like England(just say for a simple example) is one nation but we accept Scotland/ireland/Wales and no doubt these areas had their own clans in the way back when days then India would have also had certain clans abit like the different tribes you get in Africa so therefor although from x? whatever clan or tribe one would still be either Indian or Africn just as the Bedouin tribe is from Arabi? so that would still mean that the group Y Haplo H1a which is specifically found in what we would call Romany people but they would still be from India? Sio as such you would have Indian or Pakistan descendands and that would be the original homeland? |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 06/22/2009 5:32 PM |
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Hi cheri
Exactly right, they are still Indian, but with in India are many caste systems in place, tribes of sorts. The point of this project is to try to pin point a specific tribe with India or Pakistan as our ancient ancestors. You have the right idea.
Same thing with Romany, we supposedly come from different clans. Romanchel, Sinti, Dom and so forth. But that may not exactly be the full case, DNA has already shown us something no one knew before, that a Rom from Hungary shares the exact same marker mutation as a Rom of England and Scotland.
So to say we are from different clans in a sense, maybe a bit of an urban myth. If the Romany clans are in fact all related, and we keep finding this marker mutation through out European Romany lines regardless which clan they descended from, will very clearly suggest all Romany males shared a common male Adam and Eve ancestor.
Why I say we are related to some men of India, not related to all men of India because that is not the case. We do not know which clans / castes we are related to yet, but with each Indian found in H1a, helps narrow down that list of suspects. That is why I am striving to try to help narrow down the list of Indians who do carry H1a. Remember, I also run the Y Haplo Group H DNA project, so I have direct access to Indian and Pakistani participants DNA tests to compare to. Those Indians and Pakistani's in H1a, are men I send emails to, to try to understand their castes / clan systems to see if there is a pattern between them.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/YHaploGroupH/default.aspx?/publicwebsite.aspx
From this other project, we now know one Pakistani carries H1a, 8 Indians in H1a out of 44 participants.
The remaining Indians in this project are in H and H1, so 8 of 44 Indians carry H1a and that very clearly tells you no we are not related to all Indians, we are related to specific Indians with in India. But so far a specific pattern has not emerged between the 8 participants, each has their own caste system, some are Hindu, some are Christian. But if a pattern is found among the 8 Indians and one Pakistani in H1a, will no doubts give us clues to our Romany ancestors.
So far of the Indians tested, none carries this null value marker DNS 425 = 0. That maybe because this mutation occurred in Europe that did not affect Indians, we just don't know yet.
By comparing all men of India and Pakistan, we have since narrowed down that list to 8 specific men so far who are a far closer DNA match to the Romany. We are making progress, but the answers are not there just yet. We are closer to an answer then ever before, but what that answer is I do not know yet.
It is when you compare side by side, Romany DNA, to Indian and Pakistani DNA, do you start to see specific DNA patterns in common with certain select people, but not to all the people.
I have asked the 8 Indians in H1a, to compare notes with each others family trees / history to see if there is a common denominator that they all share in common. Unil that one thing in common besides DNA is found, it is difficult to pin point a specific clan / caste or religion or what ever that common denominator is between them. It may take an Indian historian to study the 8 Indian families to see what the 8 have in common besides DNA.
For Romany males to be a DNA match to 8 specific Indians does not mean we are related to all Indians, but only to the 8 who match us so far.
So we must ask our Indian cousins for help with this, they know their own history very well, and with their help, they may find something in common besides DNA in common. It is possible that originally it was a nomadic tribe who split up in to different castes / clans which maybe why we find them in differnt groups today, Hindu and Christian both. But we are closer today then ever before, just not quite there yet.
The Y Haplo H DNA project is made of of men from India, Pakistan, England, USA, Hungary, even Thialand!
Both the Indian military and British Military have spent time in Thialand, so this one participant believes his direct male ancestor must have been Indian or British, likely Indian he believes. But Thialand records are not easily accessed by their citizens and he is attempting to gain access to his family records to see if he can find answers.
Don
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Ditch
Posts:48
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| 06/23/2009 7:34 AM |
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Don; Is there a simple explanation for why you only appear interested in the male lines?
I probably have more to ask / say. But, whilst you obviously live and breath all this on a daily basis; I ~ like most, it appears ~ am trying to read what ye saying and get a handle of personal understanding on it.
So, I'd like to try one thing at a time, and in sound bites. Might be easier to digest that way?
Cheers, mate
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 06/23/2009 12:35 PM |
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just to educate the people who read this who are not gypsy i want to tell them romanys are romanys from there travals,thats when a romany became a romany over hundreds of yeares, no romany is a indian or pakistany,thoes countrys where not evan there when cave men romed the land thousands of yeares ago,romany became who they are from there travals and meetings of people who they reconised as there own,if you go down the road of science it is said the cave men themselfs where related to fish who crorled out of the sea many thousands of yeares ago,the fish it is said are desended from cells that flowted the oceans for millions of yeares so where does this lead us if we say we come from pakistan well then is there a romany cave man then fish then cell then a bit of dust from the big bang when science tells us thats where all our relations come from is there a romany dust paritcle,
the true answer for eny gypsy is your family is your family,who once thought to think of your long gone relations who where gypsys if they wished to be clasified in some lab, dordi its mokodi and and not evan right,the gypsy is the traverla and all in is family are family they only became who they where when they chanced to rome the worled,eny one now sees that gypsys come in all shades but to themselfs they are gypsys,
if your born out your a gorja for life,you can not become apart of a family through testing that says your related to a fish or piece of dust from the big bang,there are many things that makes a gypsy who they are but one thing that does not is saying your from pakistan,the gypsy became the traverla when they chose to rome the worled,in each country they chose words and people to become apart of there gypsy nation,many gypsys in europe hold know indian DNA but there gypsy for there apart of the gypsy tribe in ways and blood,if you belong to the gypsy you are gypsy,if your just at the end of your family line your part gypsy a didicoy,but if your well and truley bred out for a generatrion your a gorja and know not of gypsy ways , i think all true gypsys wouled agree with me,a gypsy is who they are there ways the beliefs there supastions,others to me desend from fish and dust ,and what of God,merm, let a gypsy tell me i lie |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 06/23/2009 12:56 PM |
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Sure can answer that. Firstly, females are allowed to join the project.
The male line is by far, easier to trace then the direct female line. Every generation, females change surnames because of marriage, and paper trail tracing the female line while not impossible, is far more difficult.
But the project is open to females also, and or to men who wish to be mtDNA tested. There are projects who's only intent is to research the direct female lines and are making progress. But it is no easy task to paper trail trace the direct female lines and then use mtDNA testing to support their paper records, it can be done, and is being done but is more complicated.
Males can Y DNA test and mtDNA test because men carry both the Y and X chromosome, while females carry only the X chromosome.
mtDNA is not my strong suit, it a a bit more complicated and an area I have not studied well yet. The female line is just as important as the male line, but I understand the male line better is all lol.
mt Haplo M was just discovered in a female British Romany, and mt Haplo M is known to have come from Asia too.
I do hope to see many more females join the project too, or to have males be mtDNA tested either is fine.
Males typically keep the same surname, not always the case but typically they do, which makes tracing the male line in the paper records easier.
So we can follow a male line in the paper records and use that paper trail knowledge to compare Y chromosomes between males of the same surname to see if they shared a common male ancestor.
DNA testing was not intended to be used compare to men of another surname, but the Romany are not the typical group of people.
Myself and others have theorized that we believe only one group of Asians left India for Europe and that they were likely already related when they left Asia.
Some have said they believed there were multiple waves of immigrants, but when you start looking at the DNA evidence, DNA highly suggests many of us are distantly related.
Part of the problem is, some of the females in the project, could not specifically tell me tell me who their Romany ancestor was. Some were going on family history that they had a Romany connection in their tree, but did not know specifically who their Romany connection.
Mt Haplo M*, Haplo H, Haplo U2, Haplo U3b, Haplo U4, Haplo U5 have been found among ladies who claimed to have Romany ties.
That is far to wide of a range of mtDNA Haplo Groups being found among supposed Romany females. The one in mt Haplo M is the one I am convinced of, not just because of her Haplo M, but because she has first hand knowledge of who her Romany connections are, unlike most of the other female participants in the project who "presumes" they have Romany ties based only on word of mouth history.
Here direct female line is as follows:
Mother-Davies
Grandmother-Lewis
Great grandmother-Riles
Great Great Grand mother - unknown
That is far more information then all the other female participants provided me. And Davies and Riles were the 2 specific surnames of great interest for this project. So we now know this Riles > Lewis > Davies branch on the female side does in fact carry an Asian female Haplo Group. And this is the first solid evidence we have in the project to date. Some of the female participants carry European female Haplo Groups, not Asian Haplo Groups, so the only conclusion I can make is their direct female ancestor was European in origin, not Asian in origin. And like I said, the majority were not certain who their Romany connection was in their trees, and that is the reason we find so many different mt Haplo Groups in the project, because the participants themselves were not always certain who their Romany connection was because they had not researched their own family trees well to know who that Romany connection was to even know if it was on the male or female side of their tree.
So it is going to take ladies who do know specifically who their Romany connections are to be of help to the project. Not knowing who your Romany ancestors are, actually hurts the project because some have not paper trail traced their trees to know if they even have a Romany connection.
I could be a little more restrictive with the project and make some females prove their Romany connections if they do not have a known Romany surname, but I do not wish to put restrictions on the project if I can avoid it. I can only hope the participants know their Romany connections and not guess that they have Romany connections. For those who actually knows who their Romany connections are, helps regardless what Y or mt Haplo Groups they carry.
But understand who I am dealing with here, not all have first hand personal knowledge of who their Romany ancestors were, some whom are being tested on the female test, are going by word of mouth history that they had a Romany connection some where in their tree, but have no first hand knowledge of who that person was. And then are disapointed to learn they carry European mt Haplo Groups.
We must look to Asians mainly India mt Haplo Groups to see which mt Haplo Groups Indians and Asians carry in them in order to try to find Asian mt Haplo Groups among the direct female Romany lines. mt Haplo M is found in India, so we have identified one direct Indian female lineage in the project already.
What will be learned from testing the females, I simply do not know because I do not have enough evidence to work from yet.
Those male Romany lines who carry European Y Haplo Groups, would be encouraged to mt DNA test too because it would seem their Romany connection came in on their female side.
I do look forward to having more females in the project one day, especially females who know their Romany family history who can be of great help in explaining their connections. The more I know, the easier it is to see other patterns among the many families. As I start to see patterns, I can then follow that pattern to suggest one participant order another test, and or ask for a surname in their tree who is not a part of the project yet, to ask them to be tested.
There is a pattern here, and given enough patterns to follow, so much more can be learned by following the patterns in our DNA.
Having the DNA participants exchanging family trees will help all of us because it will allow for many more connections in all of our trees because a good many of us are related to one another over and over again over history.
Who knows, a specific marker mutation may one day be found among Romany females too, just like the marker mutation we have found among the men.
But until a lot more males and females join the project, those discoveries will elude all of us.
I do highly suggest all participants try to upgrade their tests to the highest marker levels when possible. Some of the discoveries were not made until the tests were upgraded to the best kit.
So females in the project should consider going to the mtDNA plus kit one day in the future, males should consider going to the 67 marker level with the addition of the Deep Clade SNP test when possible. So much more was learned once multiple men when to the 67 marker level with the addition of the new SNP test that we simply could not have learned had they not done so.
But funding is also an issue, especially in this day and age with the economy the way it is. This is why I set the project up to accept donations in any dollar amount to be accepted. Even on my very limited income, my wife and I donated $10.00 towards the project and when enough donations are collected, free tests can be ordered for those who want to test, but can not afford to test. And the donations can go towards upgrading tests of current participants.
Like Lee, he has tested at the 12 maker level. I would one day like to see his test upgraded to the 67 marker level to see if he too carries this null value marker DNS 425 = 0 like the rest of us, and to see who he is more closely matched to among the current participants. But Lee can not afford to upgrade, it took all they had to get the 12 marker test ordered. So even small donations to the project adds up, and will one day allow upgrades and free tests to be ordered which will help the participants and the project at the same time.
There is currently $47.00 in the general fund, so we are only a few dollars short from being able to upgrade Lee from the 12 marker kit to the 25 marker kit.
There are 100's of us online, and if everyone only donated $1.00 a month or every few months, that adds up and allows the project to order free tests or upgrades. I never see a penny of the donations, all donations are kept in a general fund with FTDNA and they spend that money on the participant that I tell them to. So FTDNA has the money, not me. So when there are enough funds available in the general fund, I send FTDNA an email to order a new kit, or to order an upgrade. I am already at the 67 marker level and have Deep Clade SNP tested, funds will never ever be used on my kit, just to be clear.
I have the web page set up to show who made what donations and when that donation was made, and how that money was spent.
I do that so there is zero questions where the money goes. I do this all for free, I do not make one penny from doing this project.
Upgraded kits are only done so with the participants permission.
A Lock(e) researcher sent me a check in the mail to donate to the Locke DNA project that I also run. I had to mail that check back to them with instructions to make it out to FTDNA because I can not accept any donations made directly to me. So let me be very clear here, no donations are to be sent to me, to follow the instructions on the web site if you wish to make a donation. That is always the first thing asked of me, what do I get out of this.
Nada, Zero, Zilch! I get the satisfaction that I am helping document our family trees with the use of DNA testing. And I am helping do some of the paper trail research when I have the time.
Understand this, I am disabled and now in a wheel chair, and on a fixed income. I am not allowed to earn an income while on disability, I would risk loosing my disability if I were getting paid for this project. Just not worth it to me to loose my disability check, so I do this all for free out of the goodness of my heart for the greater good. I faught for 2 years to get on disability, no way will I risk loosing it.
Genealogy and genetic genealogy allows me to do something that I like doing, to keep my mind active and to keep me from going stir crazy from sitting around all day long! lol. I just got my wheel chair, and am not far from getting ramps to allow me to go outside, and will have a lift installed on my vehicle soon to allow me to go anywhere I want to go. Being cooped up in the house for the last 2 years is more then I can bear. Not being able to go outside kills me. But I got a ton of research done in the last 2 years because I only had the computer and TV to keep my mind busy.
But I am almost set up to be able to start traveling again, to go camping if I want, to just go to the mountains or lakes for a day trip.
My only motive is to learn more about who we are as a people, to learn who our ancient ancestors were, and to better paper trail trace each of our trees.
Anyway, yes the ladies are just as welcome to join the project, this is not an all male project.
Don
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vince smith
Posts:19
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| 06/23/2009 3:23 PM |
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Leachim,
No Gypsy man is ging to argue with your point. i'm a day to day travelling man and 99% would say the same thing. Since I was about fourteen I started to ask myself why some of the people among us were so dark (by no means all) and why we used the language that we do.I started reading the old george Borrow books and other books that said we were of Indian origin. Since then I always wondered if it was true. I know in my family there are all sorts of Travelling people as well as the odd Gorja here and there. But the main origin of the Romany people was always something that interested me. Getting a living takes up most of a Travelling man's time but all of us who come on line just want to know that little bit more. That's why you and i bother to join Journey folki.
I ended up reading virtually every book on the subject when I was younger. i kept that to myself. You and I know, a lot of Travellers would say " look at that Dinlo, reading a book about Travellers when he only has to look out of the trailer window to see as many Gypsies as he wants". LOL
None of these books could tell me what I wanted to know. Some said Egypt, some India, some Ireland and your 100% right pal, it dosen't really make one iota of difference. We all know who we are. I know a Gypsy man as soon as I loolk at him and no matter where he comes from and I'm sure you do too.
I just had this burning desire to know where it was that 1,000 0r so years ago, where did my race come from. So I took Don's DNA test. It goes against alot of what I've been taught but I wanted to know. Each to his own, but I was so interested to find out that Lees, Stanleys, Boswells, Ingrams, Smiths. Locks, Burtons, Campbells, Baileys, were all showing Indian DNA. I've grown up with some of these families and even the blond and fair ones, sometimes have a foreign look about them. So for me that explained a lot of things.
I don't think Don is saying that people who have not lived the life are on the strength of a DNA test gonna turn up on Appleby or Doncaster in an open lot LOL. What I have found since I've corresponded with Don is that his family,l although losing their Romany identity in the mellting pot of the southern USA over centuries have maintained so many ways and morals that Gorjas wouldn't understand.
I have West country Locks in my family tree. So does Don. Leachim, picture this for one minute, two Gypsy men out hawking 300 years ago. Muskras turn up, one gets lelled,the other one prasters. One gets sent out to be a slave in America. The other continues to wander in Britain. 300myrs later, one is bought up in a trailer, hawks for a living and goes to every fair and races that he can afford to get to. The other is a citizen of the USA who amongst other things is an authority on horses and finches.
We both carry the gene H1a. Genetically we are both Gypsies. If you and me picked Don up in a transit and took im round every ground in the country, they would say nice man, but a Gorja man. They wouldn't say that about you or me, so I know what you're saying. What Don is saying is that in real terms the only difference was that long ago one man got caught and one got away,..........I think he has a point and I'm happy to call him a Romnichal Brother. |
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Ditch
Posts:48
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| 06/23/2009 3:51 PM |
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Sod it, Don; I'd never yet realised ye were in USA! This further complicates things, for me.
Never mind. Could ye please list the prices ($) of each of these progressive tests? Might help some of us to know what we're up against, financially.
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 06/23/2009 4:25 PM |
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helo Vince, you will go where your heart leads you,i like your mind and see no wrong,but dont be trhinking as me a gypsy, alls good,i have my own mind and love who i am in my own mind and need no body as it was drove into me as others dont know,isent it great to be proud,they say now a proud thing is the wrong way,well i was raised to be proud and will die that way to,lel ya cherus mandi gins ya rokker, butthink of this but first the date is what 23 of the six 09, dordi then take a look at what the mush says about DNA
now a stone can be seen as a stone in science, a piece of coal can be seen as a once lost forset evan thoe it looks like stone,mud also intime thoe will become rock stone yet it was once just soil eroded by rain millions of years ago, yet now scoince tells us it is rock for elements like iron particles where cemented in the mud yet now rock is rock,,on this day now i will destroy the thery of DNA, ,did you just read above how a man can trace is Mother and Farther through Dna YET Monision only carries the x one,
now today DNA is destryoed, to say a man as a Mother and aFarther yet a Woman can only be from a x well no one wouled believe such a statemant , this now i will tell you as the truth,
you are not DNA, never was never will be, you are your relations your uncles your GrandPerants and maybe five generations or such, after this there comes like a convayer belt you can not be every thing of every one this is proved in why you see blond haired gypsys ,they come from not hundreds of yeares ago but just a few generatiuond back yet there gypsys and you can see in there bonestructure that they look just like there old old Folk, but there blond,you are about several generations back and thats it ,thats what seperates us from beying tested just like coal or rock for rock and coal have no soul we have spiret and soul and are every changing, yes there are things that bind all gypsys and no gypsy needs to prove no point but again i ask you to look at the post that says only men come from a Father and a Mother and a Woman not , dordi science is young and if this worled servives your life then i will tell you DNA will one day be proved wrong as the worled was first thought to be round,
every few years and generations you take on in your heans the the looksand ways of your nearest people, that is the way of life ,one day some are dark then someone breeds will some one lighter then the children look lighter ,some get throught back geansa generation or so and maybe dark but on the hole you are what your last five or so generations are, thats just the way of it this DNA will one day be shown for the dead soul rock it is remember this date for it died today and the gypsy lives, i dont have relations like you show in your DNA daterbase, my family line comes from the north and scotland, Wilshers, Hartleys and more common names you wouled know but you wouled not ever here of my Breeds, i wasalways told the truth and hope you think i speak the truth, your more than a gypsy than me but thats just the way but i speak with truth for others hopfully to love there long gone Family who no one respects or speaks for now, this was my teaching in b.lood not dna, ,
all the best |
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vince smith
Posts:19
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| 06/23/2009 5:07 PM |
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Hello Leachim,
I don't know it all Brother, but I do know the Hartleys and Wilshers are from the same race of people as I am and my misses is. ( she's from Abernethy).
I think, like you, that mankind as a whole thinks it knows alot more than it does. maybe in a year or two science will see DNA is not what we thought and some other theory will replace it.
as you say, it's up to each man or woman to decide for himself . Your right as well to say that what matters is what we are today and we don't need anyone else to tell us different.
good debate though and I know Don's gonna come back with something. He'll probably be chingering me LOL .
It's this kind of chat that makes these bords worthwhile.
all the best. |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 06/23/2009 6:45 PM |
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I just got an email from FTDNA telling me they have extended their sale for another week. So for you males who are interested, you can get a 37 Y DNA kit and a mtDNA test in one for 50% reduced rate until June 30th 09
"""In the last few days we have received several e-mails from group
administrators asking us to extend our "Unparalleled 50% Promotional
Discount" Y-DNA37+mtDNA for $119 (the regular project price is $248 – a
reduction of more than 50%!!), as many people are only now becoming
aware of the promotion.
We have decided, therefore, to extend it
until June 30th, 2009. Kits must be paid by July 7, 2009. In order for
the most people take advantage of this promotion, we encourage you to
post the following link in your family messages boards, blogs, and mail
lists, as well as forward to people when they ask you where to place
the order:
www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=RomnchelYDNA&Code=H75436"""
Project price for a Y 12 marker kit is $99.00 plus tax, so this promotion of a 37 marker Y kit with the mtDNA is perfect for many males who wish to test their male and female side. $119.00 is a great savings! But ends June 30th.
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LOCKEroots
Posts:23
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| 06/24/2009 1:32 AM |
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Not certain what your point is, but DNA is not destroyed. It is passed down from father to son, mother to daughter, generation after generation.
My grand father is 88 years old and can not read or write, but after I explained to him how DNA works, even he at his age understands the basic concept.
Believe me when I tell you this, I get several emails every week from England asking me about the project, there is far more interest and understanding about this project then your giving credit for.
I do not pretend to know it all, I don't. But me as well as many others are willing to try to learn. As much as I know, I have a long way to go yet and still have much to learn. But to say no one will believe it, I think you are wrong on that because the emails I get from England asking me for more information does tell me there is far more interest then you are giving credit for.
Believe it or not, up to you. But the simple facts of biology taught even in middle school tells you males carry the Y and X chromosome, and females carry
XX chromosome. Google it if you need convincing lol.
Do not take my word for it folks, if you are capable of getting on the internet, your capable of going to google to find web sites which speaks of simple biology and DNA. When in doubt, go do the research yourselves. You can sit and argue with me till your blue in the face, but until you go do the reading yourself on this very subject, and see what the experts have to say on the subject, then maybe you and others will be convinced.
I do not care if you or anyone takes my word for it, I do not care if you see me as an outsider and will never be accepted by you. You are not a Lock(e) and not my kin anyway, to me you are the outsider lol. My British Locke cousins actually came and found me! They contacted me asking if we were kin.
They were searching the internet and found my web site and contacted me, not the other way around. This is British Romany Gypsy Lock(e)'s in England who came searching for me. They have accepted me for who I am, American or not, I am a Romany Locke and they see that I am kin to them and openly accept me.
I do not need you to understand that, or to accept that lol. We are Locke's and we do accept each other regardless how you or anyone feels about it.
To us, you are the outsider and we do not need permission from anyone in anything we choose to do.
One Briitsh Locke cousin has already DNA tested, and another is considering it now. That is our choice in the matter, not yours. We choose to find our long lost kin so we can reconnect with each other out of love for our family. Through no fault of our own, our familys were torn apart by the Briitsh and Scottish governments, if anyone is to blame it is the governments, not our ancestors or their descendants.
You may choose to not accept your American cousins, or Canadian cousins or Australian cousins, but many others will. Many do understand what happened not so long ago that tore our families apart. Some of my British cousins have put themselves in my shoes and do understand and have sympthay for what happened to our families and do understand for the deep seeded desire to try to reconnect with kin.
If it takes DNA testing to help make that connection then that is our choice to do so, it is done to help others reconnect because certain historical events took place that tore our families apart. If you can not accept that or understand that, then I do not know what else to say.
Those with closed hearts and closed minds will never understand I guess. But I do not ask for permission, I do not ask for acceptance, but even a little sympathy and understanding would be nice once in a while lol. :)
For those of us who choose to go down this path, I only ask that you respect our wishes to do so with out being looked down upon.
We are simply exersizing our god given rights to choose our own path in life. If you or anyone does not respect that, then I say look deeper in your heart to have a better understanding of what really occurred not so many years ago.
Romany have been torn apart by the governments. Some were taken as children and adopted out. Others were rounded up and forcefully transported, some of which were sold in to slavery. There can be no misunderstanding here, we are seeking our kin because of no faults of our own, if there is to be any blame, blame it on England and Scotland anti Gypsy laws. Good for you who were not affected by this history, a good many others were affected and it has left a hole in our hearts, so understand our desire to reconnect with our kin. We all have a god given right to seek our our own kind to reconnect with our kin, and do not need your permission or opinion to do so.
Do not hold us in a lesser light only because I am now an American, if you do you are denying Romany history and allowing England and Scotland to get away with Romany abuses that took place in the 1600's and 1700's where they forcefully tore our families apart.
Do not accept me, no skin off my nose, your not a Locke to start with, no offense. I do not need you to be accepting, do not seek your permission, do not need you to be understanding. But I do ask that you respect our decisions which is our's to do so with. I repsect your decisions regardless which path in life you choose for yourself. I only ask that if you do not know Romany history in England and Scotland to know that a good many were shipped off to other lands through no fault of their own, to not view us only as Americans or Canadians or Australians, to view us as your cousins because we are in fact your cousins, your flesh and blood and our DNA and paper records proves that fact.
You can not imagine my disapointment to see some look down upon their American cousins with out knowing me or my family first.
This distrust of American's is to distrust your own kin. America was built with British immigrants! To view us as below you is simply insulting.
America won the war, yet I hold no grudges for either side. What happened happened it is history. Ohhh your an American that changes things. In your mind, not mine and not in the minds of many who know I am their flesh and blood cousin.
That very same attitude hurts the Stanley's, Smith's, Cooper's, Broadways, Ayres, Boswell's and many others who migrated to the USA later and are now 4th and 6th generation American's. So your telling them too because they are now Americans that changes things? In a very real Romany tradition, they followed Romany tradition and did what Romany do, go to new lands of oppertunity. How would British Romany feel if their Hungarian Romany cousins said the same things about you all, ohhh your a Brit, that changes things. To see us as anything else other then being Romany is insulting, not only to me, but to many of the families who migrated to the USA, willingly and unwillingly. So in my mind, to hold those who willingly and unwillingly migrated to other lands, are lesser Romany then British Romany? Was that your meaning when it was said "Ohh Your American, that makes a difference" ?
No it does not make a difference, at least it did not make a difference to the British Romany Locke's when they contacted me, did not make a difference to Vince and many other folks because they see past personal bias and understand that England and Scotland both forced our families to be torn apart.
Understand what you did with your words to me. "Your an American, that makes a difference" You in fact just insulted all the Locke's, Stanley's, Cooper's, Boswell's, Evans, Lee, Harrison, Joles, Bryer, Ayres, Bailey, Campbell, Ingram, Smith, Whorton / Wharton / Warton, Butler, Hill, Broadway, Lovell, Palmer and many other families whom are all now in the USA. As well as in Canada, Australia and else where. Your words are very hurtful to us because you view us as Americans, not as your cousins. Ok to insult me personally, but you in fact just insulted most of the oldest and largest families of them all because they are now Ameircan's too, and are viewed differently by you. And many American Romany of British and Scottish Ancestry are I am sure, are going to be hurt by your views that we are different in your eyes. If we are different now, blame England and Scotland, not us. It was their abuses who forced many of us to live in other nations.
Had you viewed us as your cousins, not simply Americans there would be no objections. Understand your words can cut very deeply even if that was not your intention. It is unfair of you or anyone to say such hurtful things to us only because for what ever the reasons were, our ancestors willingly or against their wills, came to the USA or Canada, or Australia or where ever. I do not need your permission to be Romany, I do not need your acceptance, and I do not need your rude comments only because you view me as an American.
I do not ask or plead or beg to be accepted, take me as I am or leave me be. Those cousins who have met me, know I am one hell of a nice man and accept me for who I am. But to view me as only an American was as far as I see it, intended as an insult and I took it as such.
I do not view you as a Brit because in my eyes, we are one and the same. Those of you who see us as Americans and not as Romany are clearly missing the point that we are in fact your flesh and blood kin, the paper records and DNA testing agree with that fact. So who here is biased then? Me or you? lol.
I see us as cousins, you see me as an American. Pay attention here, my Romany ancestors were banished out of England around 1728, three of the grand sons faught in the Revolutionary War. I could have the exact same attitude against you all, ooh your just a Brit that makes a difference lol.
So lets not be rude about it here folks, kin is kin and to cut kin bone deep by looking at us differently only because of where we now live, means we followed Romany tradition, our wheels now roll on different soils and we made the best of it. We survived the boat trip, some of us survived slavery, we survived and thrived in new lands, and if that is not the Romany way of life, I don't know what is. My grand father was the last in my direct line to have traveled by wagon, and did so through many multiple states in his life time. To view him as any less of a traveling Romany is insulting to me. He is 88 years old and still is able to drive his big motor home to travel from state to state, he even just traveled 650 miles from New Mexico to Colorado a few days ago in the motor home at 88 years old. almost 89 years old! We are Romany and in many ways continue to live the Romany life style in our own ways, we just live differently because we are in different lands is all. Spanish Gypsis, Hungarian Gypsies, Romanian Gypsies and all across Europe all live differently, does not make us differnt. We learn to adapt, we learn their languages, we learn their occupations, or continue our own occupations, but no matter where we go in life, we are Romany. One is no better no less Romany then another, and to view your American Romany cousins as only Ameicans and believe that makes a differnce, then I have to question your motives. It is possible you did not intend for your words to be an insult, but as you see I took it as an insult, because to me, to be viewed any differently only because of where I now live, no matter what your meaning was, is an insult to all Romany world wide who have by choice or against our wills, live in different lands now. Romany were not always British, remember that, you too are immigrants to that nation, no different then they are immigrants to every nation they now live. Do not see yourself as gods gift to Gypsies, you too are an immigrant, you too lived a differnt life then your European cousins. What ties us all together is we are all kin to one another no matter where we now hang our hats.
Understand your own history and be more accepting of your cousins regardless where the now live.
I do not see you as different, so why in the world would you see me as different?
My Romany Lock ancestor was British before he was banished to the American Colonies, not his fault, blame British anti Gypsy laws. So I ask you to look deeper in your heart, to understand what England and Scotland did to our families. To see me as differnt is insulting which is worse to me, because it is my own people playing this personal bias! Romany is Romany no matter where they live, no matter if they are following tradition or not, we are flesh and blood cousins. To believe you are more Romany then me, is like having a Hungarian Romany say he is more Romany then you, it is an insult that cuts right to the bone and it is unwarranted. Your words cut me right to the bone brothers and sisters. But that is ok, I have been cut to the bone more then once and survived.
Ok to insult me, I am a big man with big shoulders. But do not be expected to be invited to my house lol. Vince come on over brother! Your welcome in my home any day of the week, stay as longs as you like rent free!
Romany on sites or in homes or over seas makes no differnce to me, Romany are Romany no matter what the situation is. Maybe it makes a difference to some of you, but then you are close minded with a close heart. My Christian upbringing taught me to be accepting of others, obviously many of us were raised very differently, which does not make us good or bad, just raised differently and in different lands.
I am Romany like it or not, I do not need your permission to be who I
am, and I come from the old family that dates back to the 1600's in
England, so tell me again who the outsider is! lol. Tell me again who
is different here! I know who my Romany ancesors are, I can trace them
back to the 1670's and I am a Romany Lock. So go ahead and say it
again, that I am just an American, I am differnt, I am of the old
family to insult me you insult all Romany, say it again! lol. But I forgive your words, I was taught to forgive, to not hold a grudge.
I have already proven British and Scottish Romany have been in the American Colonies since the 1690's, and DNA testing confirms that fact.
The paper records clearly speak of Romany being forced to the Colonies, and to have some of you clearly denying our kinship, or to view us as lesser Romany then you, cuts tens of thousands of us across the world to the bone because your views are twisted and are very harsh.
Again, maybe you did not intend for it to be an insult, but I do not see it any other way. It appeared to be an insult and I took it as such.
"Ohh your an Amercan, that changes things" In your mind only brother or sister, in your mind only. Your personal view is twisted and closed hearted as I see it.
I say open your mind, open your heart, learn about British and Scottish history in regards to what really happened to our families, and then come say that to me again, your an American, that changes things. I have read the history, I am doing the paper trail research, maybe you are not and do not know all that has taken place?
Folks in England have tried telling me we can't trace our family trees because they did not marry in the church. I proved them wrong and provided them with many marriage and christening records. Many other web sites like Romanygenes and other sites has proven it can be done too.
Folks in England told me Romany and Travelers did not migrate to the USA, again I proved them wrong and provided you all with the USA census records that clearly speaks of a good many who migrated here.
But is seems no matter what I do, no matter how much research I share, no matter how much I can prove, I am viewed differently and I say, who are you to judge? Who made you my judge and jury? I need not defend myself to anyone, I am Romany Lock(e), I know who I am, I know who my ancstors are.
I do not hide behind alias screen names online, I do not lie about my real name, I am honest and open, so much so my home address has been on my web site since 1995!
I am not ashamed to be who I am, I do not fear anyone, I have no reason to hide for any reason. That is far more then many of you can say about yourselves lol :)
I am rather tired of having to defend myself, to have to defend my family honor by outsiders who are not even related to me. I am an outsider to you, ok with me because I have no personal issue with outsiders. But understand, you are an outsider to me and not a Romany Lock(e). But I am different in this respect, I do not see you differently only because you live in England or where ever, in my eyes we are one and the same people, just with different histories because some of our ancestors were banished to other lands is all. I do not judge you like you judge me, why is that?
Maybe because I have done nothing but read about Romany history, and do understand many of the events that took place that tore our families apart, and if there is blame to be made, to blame the governements involved who did such acts against our people, to not blame our ancestors for not running fast enough from the law and got caught. And it wasn't always the law who caught them either! Bounty hunters were once paid a bounty for each Gypsy they could catch! So darn it, learn your own darn history before you make wise cracks and judge others. If you truly understand British and Scottish Romany history, you would not look down your noses at me and the rest of the families who were banished, or left to seek better oppertunities.
It is Romany tradition to make the best of it against all odds, and we survived and thrived in our new lands, that sould be commended, not looked down upon.
You all should be darn proud of my direct ancestor! He survived the boat ride, he survived being a slave / indentured servant / criminal, he raised a family and survived bears, cougars, snakes, nasty weather, and even Indian raids! And more importantly, he survived against racial hate, even here in the Colonies. He is my hero! He survived against all the odds! If that is not a true Romany then I don't know what one is. It took a stong will power to survive all the things he faced in his life time. He survived the Revolutionary War too!
The Romany who came to the states between 1850 to early 1900's were free people, they left England on their own accord, they had the freedom to return to England if that was their choice. And some did return to England, but a good many stayed and are now 4th and 6th generation American Romany of British ancestry. And many are of the old families and to say that changes things only because we are now American's is an intentional insult to us.
That is something me and many of the other families will never understand, that our own flesh and blood sees us as different now only because we followed Romany tradition and moved to other lands and have survived and thrived in our new lands. Maybe some of you forget traditions to move on, to move to new lands. It took a lot of guts and survival instincts to move to new lands! America was and in many respects still is a wild nation with many wild forests that remain untouched. Many of the threats from 200 years ago very much remain the same threats here today!
Bear and Cougar come in to our town every year, and most every year someone is killed by bears and cougars. So some of the threats remain much the same as it was 200 and 300 years ago. I have personally seen bear and cougar in the wild, and even as accustomed as I am to them, they will still scare the heck out of you and make your hair stand on end! lol. Romany in the USA, Canada, Australia, South America, Jamaica, Bermuda, Barbados and else where had to face whole new fears on top of racial haters. Unless you have been to the wild woods here in the USA, you can not understand the none stop dangers that still remain here even today. Canadian and Australian Romany also faced many fears and dangers in their own nations. It took very strong people to survive in such harsh conditions, yet our ancestors did so! Do not dare look down on us, our ancestors faced dangers that you all in England did not have to face, believe me. One of my own Lock's was killed during an Indian Raid, tell me British Romany faced Indian attacks and I will call you out on that! lol. Romany in Australia faced many similar dangers, but had many more poisonous critters to deal with. The USA has our share of them too, but nothing compared to Australia. For anyone to say we are different, where we live makes a difference, I say hogwash!
Our ancestors who were forced to go to other lands, faced more then just racial hates! Our ancestors faced very harsh weathers, poisionsous critters, bears, cougars, wolves, aligators, crockadiles, Indians, and much more. You all had established road systems, our ancestors often had to pave their own roads because where many of our ancestors lived, there were no established roads.
USA, Canada, Australia are fairly new nations, and did not have big cities, road systems and such things already in place. They did after many generations, but did not at the start. People here like Daniel Boone, Davey Crockett and tons of others paved the pathes to open up new areas. The Romany Lock's traveled with Daniel Boone and family from Virginia to Kentucky and George Boone a Nephew to Daniel Boone married Hester Lock, one of my kin.
William Lock and one of the Boone's died during an Indian Raid trying to defend their families. So please do not look down upon us only because we are Americans, we faced things that you can't even imagine! You simply do not understand hard life until you have been forced to go to an uncharted nation where everything is wild and can kill you in a second, and still face racial hate on top of all that! I know first hand what it means to live in the desert where only weeds and catus grow, and to turn that soil in to productive land to live off of. I know what it means to hunt for my meat! I know what it means to go camp for weeks at a time in some of the most remote places in the USA and survive. I know what it is like to go hunting and be lost in a snow storm and get frost bit on my fingers, toes, ears and nose and yet still survive. I know how to hunt with only a knife, I know how to survive in most any conditions because I have done it. I know what it is like to eat rabbit, squriel, snake, birds, deer, elk, fish because I have hunted and fished for my food since I was a young boy. I was one of a very few city kids to have my own rifle by age 11. Not many other kids knew how to hunt, fish, camp, and survived out in the world, I did because I was raised outdoors. So do not shame me with your nose looking down on me. I may not have lived your life, but I have very much lived life in the same manor, just differently and in a differnt nation. What is amusing to me is, I actually understand you better then you understand me lol.
I still have my first 22 rifle which is nearing 30 years old now and is as new today as it was when I got it. I still have my same hunting knife that is as sharp today as the day I got it. And even though I now use a wheel chair, I am perfectally able to survive in the wild because of my experience. I can walk, just can't walk long distances. My own father knows what it means to work the cotton fields when few others were willing to work the cotton fields.
You can talk the talk but until you have walked the walk, do not look down upon others. Romany did what Romany do, they by force or freely migrated to other lands and learned to adapt and survived and thrived, if that is not Romany in your eyes, I say go see the eye doctor! lol.
Donald Locke
I am Romany Lock of the old family, nuf said!
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Leahcim
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| 06/24/2009 2:01 PM |
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helo Vince,
personly i think God created the known univerce,everything in it to,in my mind theres no dout in that,some would say the storys of the Bible to be asact,some wouled believe in creation but follow the science root and say God did create the universe but life as evoled through natral selection,the rules of the jungle ,the strongest servive,these two thoughts still have great strenght in the power of Faith,
others seek there answer to life in knowledge of higher power yet time as shown us these people wither no more than a second ticks in a life shown to lack in future,time and time again they have been sent but history only shows us there great moment to be the false dawn that only lasted as they claped,
i wouled say there where cave men type people, i have no dout in that, people did evolve in structure of body and languge,we all have common ancesters,we all come from these people ,ultamity we are all related,i think dna is only a minute part of the geans that make people who they are today,science can tell by drilling holes in dead peoples teeth where they drank water from,they can test there bones and say they ate grass from this place or that,science tells us they found cave men type folk who ate grass in a type long gone and match it to people now,
where these gyps people no,they where just primitive folk evolving as life shows us it does,the gypsy are who they are from the time they became gypsys,all cave men are related,the chineeze i was told tryed to say at one point that there race where a seperate race but i was told this was found to be untrue,they say there where certain types of cave men who romed the worled there name i forget ,but the ones that live on this planet now lerned to speak and ultamitly conquered the reast and through this type the people of the worled spread through out the known countrys,
everyone comes from these thes are your ancesters if you seek such a ritchness,over time people who champion ritchness like hitler have tryed to clasify there people as different and not of the truth ,but the truth is we are all related,there is no begining in india ,
i think the gypsy became the gypsy that they are from the time they had the knowledge to rome this worled,they moved to turkey i think ,grease, spain,france ,and much much more countrys,i think on these traveles they sometimes mixed with people of thoes countrys and new blood became apart of the gypsy,that is why i saw on the web studies saying thoudands and thousands of romany who where members of old romany family had different dna, who wouled say that these where not romany,you couled say they where all once cave men now that wouled not be lieing but i think the gypsy is the gypsy,weather he came in the time of turky or the tyme of spain,
if your born out and your family gone your a gorja till death, if your born in and apart of the gypsy your a gypsy and no dout in that evan if you have spanish dna from the year 1700, a gorja with indian dna is a gorja, a gypsy with hungerain dna is a gypsy,and cave men are cave men,
the answer does lay in the geans of all your folk some longer back than others but your apart of them all,i have seen Smith Women folk who look just like there Farther,its the truth far relatives of mine and you just know by there bone structure that there a Smith, they looked nothing like there Mother, i tell you this dna as it is stated is dead,look to the people who studie geans in the right fastion if you want answers to questions of who you are, but why wouled you need such and answer, did you not see the loving arms of your Mother as she loved you as a child,did you not see the wisdom of your Farther as you grew from boy to man,these are you people and they came from there people,
i believe in God myself and have many thoughts but i know a wrong when i hear one,i,m of to turkey my self tomorow and will try and put some photos on when i get back theres some of me in spain and the west indies on the photo page at the top of this page,
all the best to you Vince |
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vince smith
Posts:19
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| 06/24/2009 4:02 PM |
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Hello Leachim.
I agree with all my heart that God is all that matters at the end of the day. I believe he created us all and i don't think he's gonna reveal how in this life. I saw a film yesterday in which Galileo was being tried as a heretic because he was trying to work out how God created the universe. He argued at his trial that he knew that nothing was possible unless it was through God, he felt that god wanted him to further ther knowledge of mankind so that we could be closer to God.
My Wife is a born again Christian, she tells me to leave the science to God and worry about pleasing him. Ithink you both have a point LOL
Enjoy Turkey, I haven't been but I'm told it's good. Some of the Barrs I know just got back and me buckland mate is off this week.
Enjoy yourself and safe journey. |
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kilby
Posts:520
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| 06/24/2009 4:18 PM |
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helo Don, my american brother, i dont know who did upset ya so much bout ya beinan American gypsy but ya sure have taken it ti heart my friend, now i speek ony for meself on jf jus like evrybody else does an only reason i don reely talk bout dna is coz i don understand it an the reason for that is coz i don reellly feel a want or a need to understand it, i for one are quite happy wi what i am an who i am so i don feel a need to be botherin wi dna, that isnt to say that i dismisses it outa hand coz i know it has some very valuble uses but not inme own personal case, i see how ya write on here an i,d be tired to the bone puttin all them words on here an very big an learned words they are but not for me my frient.
my little way o lookin at these things is " if a dog is born in a stable it dont make it a horse, but a horse is a horse no matter where it was born "
now that makes sense to me an very easy it is too an thats bout as deep as i wants to get into things but about ppl lookin downon ya for bein an American well i ditnt know they did an for the little that its worth i certinly dont look down on anybody an hopes i never do, to my mind each an effry one of us is as good as each other , but no better, all best myfrient an like you i,ve never chopped an changed names anywheres on internet, jus ditnt feel a need to do that, take care an i wish ya luck with ya research into anythin ya heart desires to look into -----kilby------ |
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kilby
Posts:520
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| 06/24/2009 4:21 PM |
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| helo Leahcim , hope ya keepin well an up to ya eyes in work, ya mus be to go galavantin off to turkey ta sorlo , anyways, safe journey to you an yours----kilby---- |
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kilby
Posts:520
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| 06/24/2009 4:27 PM |
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helo Vince an tank you for ya shout on the vid from epsom, ya knows i,ll be down your way a week on fridy to meet up wi bunch o folki frients who i,ve met on here an i hopes to see ya while i,m down your way , god is good an us all meetin up on here is for a reason an thas for sure, we might not know that reason an maybe we not meant to know eh, anyways, take care an maybe we too will meet up -----kilby-----
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 06/24/2009 4:59 PM |
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| i will have a good time Vince,better if you where there Pal ,a dost of peev lol,dordi mandis shura will be paggered for sure, sal,i dont meen your wrong finding things out and the proud man you are and knowbody can take that away ,i hope you understand i dont meen no wrong in writing just having my say, hope to talk another day,i,m jumping straight in the sea when i get there, then eating thirty turkish delights chocolats, then dancing with twelve turkish belly dancers and then drinking turky dry of all the ale, then i,ll have a good sleep for me self lol ,right on the beach lol,then start again the same craik the next day ,dordi i,m a dingolo for sure, talk when i,m back or just see my great photos when i put them on lol |
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 06/24/2009 5:02 PM |
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| God bless you to, and your Wife |
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Leahcim
Posts:0
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| 06/24/2009 5:16 PM |
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| alls good Kilb, dordi your lerning the rokka now , sorla, dordi , auli i,m still at it ,been laying kerbs and tarmac but just for getting by, i think i,m getting to old now lo chasing around these shires, always wanted to do things and be me own fellow never quite got there thoe,its hard raising a Family in this day and age,bills bills bills,i dont claim bennifits yet see how others make a living of it,if your straight its hard to live right but thats the way,i quess your still flinging down the odd paver and telling some one there tiles need mending lol,it not a bad ole life if you dont weaken,thats a old saying,by the time i,m done i,ll see the worled and drink the place dry to lol, lol lol , i,ll have a safe journey to, thanks.......... |
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