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Tam
Posts:1
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| 29 Aug 2008 04:32 |
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| This DNA is a funny thing a chap I know had his done and he is from the old stock of Romanies and his came back that he had more Viking blood?? |
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Shahnee
Posts:1483
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| 01 Sep 2008 05:39 |
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Hi Folks,
The point made is an important one - what is Romany DNA?!
Had the "Romani DNA" been isolated to such a degree to its genome surely we would know, as others have said the DNA found in Romany is traceable to India - we share this DNA with other racial groups within that area.
But this find does raise another issue - setting aside the conflict over what is or is not Romany DNA. Some have made the assumption that due to only one skeletal remains (of a larger number without it) having this particluar DNA that we, as a race, therefore migrated to the English shores earlier then previously thought.
The definition of migration is a number or body of persons or animals migrating together.
By this definition we see that one genome does not a migration make - in order for us to consider the earlier migration we require far greater numbers of evidential DNA to establish a number/body movement and thereby call it a migration.
What the DNA evidence canand does show is that one of the child's parents may have been of Romany descent. The trade routes of the time led many differing races to integrate to some degree and this may have led to the DNA naturally appearing in child as a result of an interracial encounter of one kind or another.
This is a very plausible hypothesis and can be co-oberated by the archeaolgical evidence. Any other assumption, including the earlier migration theory, does not have an sustanciating archelogical or other scientific evidence and cannot be regarded as a legitimate thesis.
Sorry if that seemed abit of a mouthful - but i think you get the jist?
I'm not talking out of the top of my sherro here either - i took Joint Honours in Archeology and Human Geography at University College, Worcester, over 5 years ago. That doesn't mean i'm a know-it-all or that anyone else in a dinlo - i'm just trying to show that that i know something of the subject matter, but i don't know everything (and who does!) and would welcome any other opinions on this subject.
I'm not trying to offend or disrespect others who have commented here - far from it - and if it appears that way, i unreservedly apologise as that was not my intention.
All the best to all,
Shahnee
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If you think i lie - just ask and i'll prove you wrong |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:16
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| 04 Nov 2008 07:47 |
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Hi Shawnee
I think I understand what your saying lol.
It is still in the theory stages, but some do believe that through DNA testing, we can start to be able to better understand some of the migration routes used by Romany by following our DNA from culture to culture.
By comparing say British Romany DNA to Roms through out Europe, that it maybe possible to start seeing some are more closely DNA related to others, and are more distantly DNA related to others. Using this new knowledge, we could start to understand some of the migration routes some took. Will that theory ever pan out? I don't know. It won't be exact by any means, but it can give us clues to some of the migration routes taken.
Wouldn't anyone find it interesting to find out where in Europe the British Roms migrated from? I would find that news interesting anyway.
To Victor, I have given this much thought before I responded to you. I wanted to reply to you when you first posted, but felt I had better wait a while.
I think you misunderstand something here. Roms didn't start this DNA stuff.
The privately funded DNA studies have sent out teams world wide, who just happened to include the Roms in their DNA studies.
Already the Bulgaria, Hungary, Portugal Romany Gypsy DNA studies have been released to the public. We didn't do this, they did. But we can use this to our advantage to further our own Romany understanding.
Roms weren't any differnt in this respect, the teams went world wide DNA testing all peoples of the world, so that they could better understand Human DNA, not just Roma DNA. Romas are Human too, so why not include the Roms in the Human DNA study?
We have the privately funded studies to thank because we now know that regardless if he is a British Rom or a Hungarian Rom or what ever, over 70% of the Roma males DNA tested to date, are all in this rare Y Haplo Group H1a.
If you do not see the importance in that piece of information, then your not looking at the bigger picture here.
Because of the privately funded studies, the DNA experts are starting to lean in the direction that regardless where we now live, regardles our surnames, the vast majority of Roma males appear to have descended from one common male ancestor.
That piece of information Victor should be a good thing not a bad thing. This information just told us that the majority of Roma males are all distantly related to each other, regardless where we now live and regardless our surnames.
That Sir is a very important piece of information that can help further our understanding of our Romany history.
Will haters use this information to fuel their own hate? Of course it will, they are haters, they will use anything against the people they hate. But we as a people need to know our own history, and need to know our history in a truthful and factual manor. So educating ourselves on our own history more then over rules what haters will do with this information.
It is what we as a people can do with this new knowledge, that can benefit us because if we know our own history, we can then explain it to the world.
But it wasn't Roms who freely shared this information, it was the privately funded DNA studies being done world wide, which just happened to include Romany because we are Humans too. So the cat is out of the hat so to speak, can't help that now.
The DNA teams went in to Bulgaria, Hungary, Portugal and all across the globe and did DNA testing on all the peoples of the world, not just on Roms. Don't believe me, just google search Romany DNA, Gypsy DNA ect, you will find many DNA studies done on Romany that none of us had anything to do with.
Roms could have refused, but they were interested in knowing and agreed to DNA testing. So don't get upset with us, Roms agreed to this testing when the teams came to their area. The teams had to get signed permission slips, so they were willing participants in this world DNA study! No one forced them to submit a DNA sample, they were willing participants. So sorry Victor, Roms want to know and if that is wrong in your mind, then that is your own opinion not theirs.
But please do understand, the teams were shipped across the globe to DNA test any groups of people, Roms weren't singled out because this was a global effort, and is still going on today. And permission must be asked first before a sample can be taken. So everyone involved, was a willing participant. Roms are Humans too, and we have just as much right as anyone else to participate in global DNA testing to better understand Human DNA. If in turn, we then better understand Roma DNA, thats a win win situation I think.
If you stand against Roms being involved in DNA testing, aren't you in turn trying to take away freedom of choice?
If it was their choice, not me or you should voice out against them because they used their freedom to choose to be tested.
And bless their hearts for having enough freedoms to be able to make such a choice of their own free will. If this was being done against their will's, then I would be one of the first in line to cry foul!
It is a personl choice, and no one should stand in the way of any Rom who makes a choice because to stand in the way of progress, means we are trying to take a freedom of choice away, when we are striving to have freedoms.
I have waited a long time to say this to you and others who are so openly against this new technology, but if your so openly against it, you are in fact standing in the way of personal choice, which is then in turn taking someones freedoms away, not helping them gain freedoms, and freedom of choice is one of the most important freedoms any human can have!
So I hope you and others will back off of this strong stance of yours. If Roms make the personal choice to choose to be involved in this technology, who are we to stand in their way? If we continue to do this, we are then taking away a freedom that is so very important, and very personal to each of us who are trying to gain freedoms, not have them taken away.
Give that some thought before you reply, I say this in as respectable manor as I could and not intended to upset anyone.
But I as an American Rom, know what freedom means, and if anyone stands in the way of other Roms wanting to DNA test, to me that is far worse then outsiders trying to take a freedom away, because it is our own who are taking this freedom of choice away.
We as a people must allow others the same freedoms we so enjoy, allow them to choose what path they wish to take.
When I see Roms voicing out against other Roms, to me that is far worse of an action then any outsider could do to us.
When Roms are trying to take away a freedom instead of supporting a freedom, hurts our own cause.
It is a conflict to be an advicate for freedoms, yet voice out against Roms making a personal choice to choose, to make up their own minds. To see Roms to voice out against Roms who are making a personal choice which is a freedom, is very sad to me.
We don't have to agree with the choice, but we don't have to stand in the way of a choice either. See what I am saying?
We all know many are against this DNA stuff, but I know first hand that many are interested. We don't have a right to voice out against thoes who have the freedoms to choose, to make up their own minds if this is something they want to be involved in. If we stand against each other, isn't that hurting us far worse then outsiders standing against us?
No one has to preach freedoms to me, being an American Rom, my whole family history is full of military service in which we faught to gain our freedoms. I was born on a military base! So even today, my family still fights to have our freedoms, because if we don't, we could loose our freedoms.
Western nations have far more freedoms then our European cousins, but it was our European cousins in Hungary, Bulgaria, Portugal and else where who made a personal choice to be DNA tested, who are we to stand in the way of their personal choice?
Not me! I applaude them for feeling they have enough freedom to make such a personal choice, bravo and cheers to them for having the freedom of self expression to feel it was ok to DNA test. Not anyone's place to say other wise, to do so it trying to take away their freedoms, not gain them freedoms. Roms of the Western nations should be darn proud our European cousins had the freedoms to make a free will choice, not voice out against them for making this choice.
Let that all sink in for you who are so openly opposed to DNA testing, to stand against your own people, is taking away a freedom, and that isn't at all fair of you to take away a freedom. And you as an advicate for freedoms, I think you need to stop and take a look at your own objections here, because your openly voicing out against Roms who used freedom of choice, and that can't ever be a bad thing! Yet you act like it was a bad thing and I don't get it.
You can't advocate freedoms, and at the same time voice out against thoes who do use that freedom to choose to DNA test or what ever else a Rom chooses to participate in. As an advicate, you should applaud Roms who have the freedoms to choose, not openly stand against them. That obviously sends mixed messages not only to Roms, but to outsiders too!
Hey your fighting for our rights and freedoms, but HEY YOU CAN'T DNA TEST! What? Freedom of self expression, freedom of choice are the key essentials to freedom it's self!
As a free American Rom, it angers me to see Roms standing and openly voicing out against Roms who want to express their freedoms to choose what path is right for them. That hurts our cause in so many ways. As an American, freedoms is a way of life here, but we had to fight for them to gain them. Now when anyone tries to take a freedom away, the whole country will stand as a country of free citizens and stop that from happening. Yet I see some feel it is ok to voice out against this technology, and makes me wonder what other rights and freedoms you want to take away? If it is ok to take away this freedom of choice, and it is being openly supported by Roms to take a open and very public stance against this technology, what other rights and freedoms is on your agenda to take away next? Just doesn't work that way folks, you can't fight for freedoms and rights, and at the same time, speak out publically against a freedom of choice a Rom may take.
A Native American would tell you, your speaking with a forked tongue, meaning you say one thing, but do another.
Can't have it both ways folks, can't fight for freedoms and rights, and then openly oppose someone's right to choose which is a gods gift to freedom.
If this makes some of you stop and think before opening your mouth in a very public place, and makes you think about the rights and freedoms your trying to take away, then I have done my service for the day.
Stepping off the soap box now lol. |
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Sal
Posts:1
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| 04 Nov 2008 17:52 |
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| Well said Lockeroots !!! spot on!! |
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Shahnee
Posts:1483
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| 05 Nov 2008 02:57 |
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Hello LOCKEroots,
Yes, you have understood me perfectly - glad that i wasnt too long winded and grammtical to leave you behind! LOL!
And you are quite correct that DNA, though in its formative stages, can lead to comparitive factual evidence to co-orberate or cancel a particular migratory thesis - in lay man terms - it may lead to a greater understanding of how our race moved across the world and how we got to where we are today. However the evidence may also devalue the beliefs of some of our older generations - who believe that we as a race did not integrate or that there is a "pure" bloodline. Obviously evidence already exists to co-oberate this belief but the fact still remains that regardless of any evidence we now have or will gain, many will continue to believe as they already do.
I think it is that they feel to believe otherwise would some how "devalue" the race completely - but this is simply not the case - every race bears genetic markers with other races - and this is through intergration - all races have a little of another in them. Nothing is pure - despite the beliefs of so many.
Hitler and Nazism proved this - his desperate attempts at a pure "Aryan" race, did not stop many individuals from "posing" as Aryan for survival - blue eyes and blond hair does not an Aryan make!
The greater shame of so many with this "pure" race belief, be it the the obtuse manachial belief of Hitler or the greater understandable belief of a race to maintain itself, is that they have forgotten the greater picture - ALL of us already belong to a far greater race - THE HUMAN RACE.
All the best, Shahnee. |
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LOCKEroots
Posts:16
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| 06 Nov 2008 06:51 |
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Glad I didn't misunderstand your meaning! :)
I do believe that it maybe possible that by comparing Roma DNA, that in time, we can start to build a better picture of the migration routes some took. At least it would give us some solid evidence to stand on any way, which is better then the folk lores, fables and myths that have been spread around by Europeans and Roms a like.
I think it is a myth that there is such a thing as a " pure blood" Rom. Taking in to account that the Romany have lived in Europe for 100's of years, maybe much longer. To not ever mingle with Europeans, seems very unlikely for all the families involved. But take a step back further in time, who is to say if the Roms weren't already a mixed people long before they entered Europe?
I do believe it is a built in trigger in humans, all humans, to know that to have a closed gene pool will lead to the extincion of humans. This trigger mother nature built in to humans, means it is a natural drive to mingle to make the gene pool stronger. Mother nature didn't intend for closed societies with a limited gene pool. To have a closed gene pool, would have been the demise of humans in the end. So this natural drive to bring in new blood lines to make the existing gene pools stronger, is a human trigger built in to all of us, Rom or not.
Counter arguement, it maybe possible that some Roms who are making such claims being " pure blood " may actually have a different meaning. Some maybe using this term with the intention that their family has lived the traditional ways, and not intending to mean they are " pure blood" but rather that they continued the traditional ways. If used in that context, I can sort of understand their meaning.
If a Rom uses " full blood " in that context that their direct lineage have always been traditional Roms, I can then understand their meaning, but believe we should avoid such terms because of the negative condentations that maybe misunderstood by others.
With Hitler's " pure race / pure blood hate views. I believe Roms need to rethink using this term, because they then accidently make it appear they are aligning themselves with the Hitler views.
Just imagine this for a minute. A Hater types in pure race or pure blood in to a search engine, and then finds Roms making such statements. That hater will then misunderstand the intent a Rom who used that term. How darn scary is that!
So I think as Roms, we must be very careful in our own wording, because it can be terms and words used against us if it is taken out of context by the wrong people.
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Shahnee
Posts:1483
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| 06 Nov 2008 10:58 |
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Hi LOCKEroots,
Once again it would appear you and i are writing on the same page of the same book. You far more eloquently explained my greatest concern - the use of the term "pure" and its associations with Hitler and other maniacs!
You are quite right that some may misconstrew the term and associated us with hatred and anti racism and as you say none of us, regardless of what race we are, can say we are "pure" in any respect!
Whilst i understand that some may believe the term to be "living traditional ways historically" that in itself is open to misinterpretation - purely because so many take that to mean in trailers - and so many these days do not - but still maintain the traditional ways.
At the end of the day, the most important thing of all is to retain who we are, respect who we are and be proud of it.
All the best,
Shahnee.
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If you think i lie - just ask and i'll prove you wrong |
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kilby
Posts:390
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| 13 Nov 2008 09:33 |
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| Hi all, thats if there is an ALL anymore, whats happened, wheres evrybody gone off to, i heard o folki shiftin but this is more like desertion, you too sure knows lot bout that dna stuff Shanee, fraid its bit over me head to be honest an not reely in my line, me an pat took load o scrap in on tuseday an have ya sin whats happen to price o scrap, bottoms dropped out it,it was reel good an then , boom, gone, not worth puttin on truck, ah well, thats the way of it an theres no accountin for some things in this ol life we leed, hope ye,s all well down in sunny south since ya deserted ya true rots up here in the tropical north haha, see ya later, all best---kilby---- |
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Nina
Posts:2
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| 13 Nov 2008 17:29 |
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Hi Kilby think you will find some of the old ones on here :) new Gypsy chat board
http://z10.invisionfree.com/Gypsy_Message_Board/index.php?showforum=2 |
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Shahnee
Posts:1483
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| 16 Nov 2008 10:31 |
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Hi ya Kilby,
How's ya diddlin? Now listen here, Uncle, i havn't deserted ya, just been a busy bee! LOL!
And as for Sunny south n Tropical north, are ya having a sal?! Don't know were ya been, but were i have been its been all round Winter!! If ya see the sun on its travels can ya remind it where Britain is?! LOL!
I may not have been about to chat, but i have been about, and how could i miss ya more with all them emails to keep me going - ya a killer! LOL!
All the best, take care ya sen, Shahnee xx
Hello Nina,
Thank you for that like - will take a look see later.
All the best to you,
Shahnee |
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If you think i lie - just ask and i'll prove you wrong |
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kilby
Posts:390
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| 16 Nov 2008 12:01 |
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Hi Nina, thanks for that, i,ve had a trawl round on that site ya put up an they seems a decent bunch, though i ony talked wi a couple of em yet, i dont see you on there , or do some people use diffrent names on diffrent sites ? If they does that surely it,d make things complicated, anyways i,m still ony a beginner on this yoke an not too use to way of it yet but thanks again.
Hi Shahnee, i,m diddlin well as usual even wi no summer an winter now for nex forever , or so it seems, your sure one busy lass, evry site i look on an your thare, up to sumthin or other, reckon ya lokin for a mesion in dispatches or maybee somethin in the new years honers list sal, anyways at least the rain,s still fairly warm jus now an its luffly seein all the pretty wheelie bins blowin up an down the street hahaha see ya later kid xx |
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Shahnee
Posts:1483
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| 18 Nov 2008 13:50 |
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Hi ya Kilby,
Well then there be no name in lights for me - thankfully - and i only post on 3 sites - so what ya monin ova?! LOL!
So ya got flying wheelie bins - must be going south for winter n i'm tempted to join em! LOL!
Take care the sen,
Shahnee xx |
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If you think i lie - just ask and i'll prove you wrong |
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