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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 05 Oct 2006 19:14 |
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Very often on Romani sites I see certain articles written in English using the English alphabet, but when quoting words from the Romani language they write in an Eastern European alphabet.
i.e.
The Romani word for fire is often written as 'Jag'. The actual way this is spoken however, is 'Yahg'.
The reason being is that in Eastern Europe 'j' is pronounced as 'y'.
Many of the writers of the articles that are written in English have got their research via Vlax Romanis which has been written by Vlax Rom such as Kalderash who use the alphabet of their native lands in Eastern Europe.
I wonder if the English Gahjo scholars looking into the Romani jib actually read the word as if it was spelt in English, lol.  |
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bang30
Posts:0
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| 05 Oct 2006 23:41 |
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hi cj:-)i just wonderd whats the contry with the the purest rumness and do there words match the english gypsy rumness??
and i think rumness for fire is yog most gypsys iv ever met say yog??
all the best ..rumny chall'
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 06 Oct 2006 20:48 |
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Sastipe 
I'm not sure which dialect of Romanis is the purest. I think each dialect can have differant parts of grammar or purer words that were spoken in the dialect that we all our common anchestors spoke upon arrival into Europe.
i.e in Anglo-Romani we have maintained words like 'kushti' which is from the Persian word 'kush' meaning good only it has been mutated with the Indian originating Romani grammar of mascaline / femanine making it 'kushti' (feminine). Although Anglo Romani is just a shadow of the former language it used to be whereas other dialects are still very much part of the language spoken upon arrival into Europe, it still has kept some words that have been lost in others.
Yog is the anglo-romanised word for fire. Yag is also recognised, but more with puro folki or in the welsh dialects. My Grandparents would say 'yag'. My father tended to use both.
I also often hear 'Yog' to also mean to shoot someone.
Other examples of Anglo Romani using 'o' instead of 'a' are
Gorja - Gahje (non Romani)
Kom - Kahm (love)
Bori - Bahri (large)
Pobbel - Pahbel (apple)
Lolo - Lahlo (red)
Totti - Tahtti (hot)
Yok - Yahk (Eye)
From what I know it is only in the UK that 'a' is replaced with 'o'. As far as I know, in all the other dialects 'a' is used. In the older Anglo-Romani dialect, 'a' was used.
If a English Rom said Bori to a vlax Rom, then they would be saying 'bride'. |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 06 Oct 2006 21:04 |
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It is for this reason that I painfully try and learn the origins of the word within the Romani language as to discover the original language that was common to all the Roma, Cale and Sinte of Europe. It help teach us our families history.
I appreciate the gaining of facts as it helps me to teach my sons about their anchestors with the comfortable feeling that the knowledge is accurate.
There are a few Romanian words present in Anglo-Romani like bauri (snail) which suggests a connection with the Romanian Roma. |
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bang30
Posts:0
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| 06 Oct 2006 22:20 |
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| hi .. i think acsents has a lot to do with how you say words'' you
mentioned the welsh gypsys'' as you know every travler has diferent acsents irish has there own scots and welsh england has a lot of diferent acsents .. but the funny thing about travlers is you can tell a irish or welsh or any other travler were they come from but they dont speak like the gorgers from there''
welsh do know a lot or true rumnes my family traveld all over with welsh gypses and as i say they do speak proper good rumness but it would be hard to say they pronounce romanis the way it should be seid cos there acsent is so hevey and strong that yog could have easy turned yog to yag and vice verse.. what do ya think? i do get what you say about learning the forin way so you get it proper and it is a good way but i dont think you could talk to a uk gypsy and say words like the forin gypses speak them..i dont think it would work in this contry?
but i do agree that the knowledge is good to know and i dont blame you for learning it ''
all the best' |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 03 Aug 2007 22:39 |
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Hi all,
Something just occured to me so I thought I would add it on here. As the letter 'j' is pronounced as a 'y' in the Eastern European alphabet, they therefore do not have a 'j' so instead they write 'zh'.
In some alphabets words starting with 'x' sound like words like they start with 'h'.
Example of Romani words using the eastern European alphabet are;
Gazho (non-Romani man)
Zhuvli (female)
jag (fire)
Jekh (one)
Zhal (go)
Zhan (know) - 'like our jin'
Zhukel (male dog)
Zhukli (female dog)
Xal (eat) - like our 'hal'
Xaben (food) - 'like our haben / hobben'
Xordo - small
All the best
Cj |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 11 May 2009 21:11 |
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Posted By Cj Eastwood on 03 Aug 2007 22:39
Hi all,
Something just occured to me so I thought I would add it on here. As the letter 'j' is pronounced as a 'y' in the Eastern European alphabet, they therefore do not have a 'j' so instead they write 'zh'.
In some alphabets words starting with 'x' sound like words like they start with 'h'.
Example of Romani words using the eastern European alphabet are;
Gazho (non-Romani man)
Zhuvli (female)
jag (fire)
Jekh (one)
Zhal (go)
Zhan (know) - 'like our jin'
Zhukel (male dog)
Zhukli (female dog)
Xal (eat) - like our 'hal'
Xaben (food) - 'like our haben / hobben'
Xordo - small
All the best
Cj I'm a couple of years late on this one Cj, but I recognise these unusual spellings.
These are transliterations from the Cylliric alphabet (Russian) never perfect at the best of times. And depending what the target language originally was would affect the outcome.
Your right about the J pronounced as a Y or in the Russian they would use that back to front R.
Try pronouncing a D before those Zh's like in my name "George" could be written "Dzhordzh" close by not quite there is it? Not that the Eastern Europeans would pronounce the D. But we do! Even when it's not there!! Take the girls name Jenny = Dzhenny, but never Zhenny!
That X they use is pronounced like the ch in Scottish loch, difficult for us to pronounce on the front of a word. Try pronouncing that X as a Kh and not as an H.
The spellings you've listed lead me to think that the target language of the transliteration was German and not English.
I hope I've helped a little your quest to decipher the roots of Romany. 
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rawny
Posts:85
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| 12 May 2009 16:58 |
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| Thats interesting, you must know a bit about languages then |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 13 May 2009 07:39 |
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A bit yes, I've always loved to travel and have always veered away from the touristy sites and prefering to meet the local people. So learn a little of the languages I come across.
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cathayb
Posts:121
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| 13 May 2009 12:54 |
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| the thing about romanus it is not a written language.remeber few gypsies could read or write.its only recently gypsies have started trying to write their words down and then very few as most gypsies would refer to keep it secret so what your getting in the main is gaujos interpretation of the written romany word.also romanus although the nouns are very often the same the building words such as but ,as and ,ec., are adopted from the country. |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 13 May 2009 20:01 |
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Hi Cathayb
You're right about that, I've noticed all Gypsies use the grammar of the country they live in. Although the (Romany) words change a bit (and sometimes a lot!) in pronounciation from country to country, a good deal of them I understand. It's not surprising that Romany has lost it's grammar, having never been a written language and all that wandering about that the Gypsy peolpe like to do!
When a language has a written form, it takes on a set standard and then evolves slowly, without that written form changes happen fast, even faster if it's speakers are moving from country to country.
All the different spellings of the word "gorga" (even on this site) show that there isn't yet a standard even today. The desire to keep the language secret and that coupled with the historical lack of reading and writing skills amongst the Romany has lead to and will continue it's decline. Which is a shame. |
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rawny
Posts:85
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| 14 May 2009 15:49 |
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| Its a shame yes ,when i was younger i was never interested in speaking romanes , only know a few words , i dont think my father was fluant but he knew a good bit , wish id have taken a interest now,i would loveto be fluant in differant languages i think its a wonderful thing , to be able to converse with people when in their enviroment gives you a differant perspective on them |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 15 May 2009 16:48 |
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Posted By xrosiex on 15 May 2009 02:12
i feel that its a big shame that our language is dieing and gypsy children seem to know hardly any anymore which i blame the parents for we all should do more to teach our children by using the words we know when we speak to them, after all i feel our language is part of what makes us what we are.
its nice to read what you have to say about our language George i love to learn about Romany words so please carry on teaching us all more of what you know====Rosie====
LOL, I don't thing with my gorga upbringing that I'm anyone to teach you about the Romany language! I would love to be able to put together even one full sentence in Romany.
Isn't there a Romany/English dictionary available somewhere? Or has anybody got any links to some Romany poetry or stories?
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Moderator
Posts:680
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| 16 May 2009 06:47 |
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| Hi George if you look at top of page under History & Culture in the drop down menu is a Whole section on History & Language and also Gypsy Customs & sayings :)) |
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| Author |
Messages |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 10/05/2006 7:14 PM |
|
Very often on Romani sites I see certain articles written in English using the English alphabet, but when quoting words from the Romani language they write in an Eastern European alphabet.
i.e.
The Romani word for fire is often written as 'Jag'. The actual way this is spoken however, is 'Yahg'.
The reason being is that in Eastern Europe 'j' is pronounced as 'y'.
Many of the writers of the articles that are written in English have got their research via Vlax Romanis which has been written by Vlax Rom such as Kalderash who use the alphabet of their native lands in Eastern Europe.
I wonder if the English Gahjo scholars looking into the Romani jib actually read the word as if it was spelt in English, lol. |
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bang30
Posts:0
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| 10/05/2006 11:41 PM |
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hi cj:-)i just wonderd whats the contry with the the purest rumness and do there words match the english gypsy rumness??
and i think rumness for fire is yog most gypsys iv ever met say yog??
all the best ..rumny chall'
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 10/06/2006 8:48 PM |
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Sastipe
I'm not sure which dialect of Romanis is the purest. I think each dialect can have differant parts of grammar or purer words that were spoken in the dialect that we all our common anchestors spoke upon arrival into Europe.
i.e in Anglo-Romani we have maintained words like 'kushti' which is from the Persian word 'kush' meaning good only it has been mutated with the Indian originating Romani grammar of mascaline / femanine making it 'kushti' (feminine). Although Anglo Romani is just a shadow of the former language it used to be whereas other dialects are still very much part of the language spoken upon arrival into Europe, it still has kept some words that have been lost in others.
Yog is the anglo-romanised word for fire. Yag is also recognised, but more with puro folki or in the welsh dialects. My Grandparents would say 'yag'. My father tended to use both.
I also often hear 'Yog' to also mean to shoot someone.
Other examples of Anglo Romani using 'o' instead of 'a' are
Gorja - Gahje (non Romani)
Kom - Kahm (love)
Bori - Bahri (large)
Pobbel - Pahbel (apple)
Lolo - Lahlo (red)
Totti - Tahtti (hot)
Yok - Yahk (Eye)
From what I know it is only in the UK that 'a' is replaced with 'o'. As far as I know, in all the other dialects 'a' is used. In the older Anglo-Romani dialect, 'a' was used.
If a English Rom said Bori to a vlax Rom, then they would be saying 'bride'. |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 10/06/2006 9:04 PM |
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It is for this reason that I painfully try and learn the origins of the word within the Romani language as to discover the original language that was common to all the Roma, Cale and Sinte of Europe. It help teach us our families history.
I appreciate the gaining of facts as it helps me to teach my sons about their anchestors with the comfortable feeling that the knowledge is accurate.
There are a few Romanian words present in Anglo-Romani like bauri (snail) which suggests a connection with the Romanian Roma. |
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bang30
Posts:0
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| 10/06/2006 10:20 PM |
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| hi .. i think acsents has a lot to do with how you say words'' you
mentioned the welsh gypsys'' as you know every travler has diferent acsents irish has there own scots and welsh england has a lot of diferent acsents .. but the funny thing about travlers is you can tell a irish or welsh or any other travler were they come from but they dont speak like the gorgers from there''
welsh do know a lot or true rumnes my family traveld all over with welsh gypses and as i say they do speak proper good rumness but it would be hard to say they pronounce romanis the way it should be seid cos there acsent is so hevey and strong that yog could have easy turned yog to yag and vice verse.. what do ya think? i do get what you say about learning the forin way so you get it proper and it is a good way but i dont think you could talk to a uk gypsy and say words like the forin gypses speak them..i dont think it would work in this contry?
but i do agree that the knowledge is good to know and i dont blame you for learning it ''
all the best' |
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Cj Eastwood
Posts:233
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| 08/03/2007 10:39 PM |
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Hi all,
Something just occured to me so I thought I would add it on here. As the letter 'j' is pronounced as a 'y' in the Eastern European alphabet, they therefore do not have a 'j' so instead they write 'zh'.
In some alphabets words starting with 'x' sound like words like they start with 'h'.
Example of Romani words using the eastern European alphabet are;
Gazho (non-Romani man)
Zhuvli (female)
jag (fire)
Jekh (one)
Zhal (go)
Zhan (know) - 'like our jin'
Zhukel (male dog)
Zhukli (female dog)
Xal (eat) - like our 'hal'
Xaben (food) - 'like our haben / hobben'
Xordo - small
All the best
Cj |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 05/11/2009 9:11 PM |
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Posted By Cj Eastwood on 03 Aug 2007 22:39
Hi all,
Something just occured to me so I thought I would add it on here. As the letter 'j' is pronounced as a 'y' in the Eastern European alphabet, they therefore do not have a 'j' so instead they write 'zh'.
In some alphabets words starting with 'x' sound like words like they start with 'h'.
Example of Romani words using the eastern European alphabet are;
Gazho (non-Romani man)
Zhuvli (female)
jag (fire)
Jekh (one)
Zhal (go)
Zhan (know) - 'like our jin'
Zhukel (male dog)
Zhukli (female dog)
Xal (eat) - like our 'hal'
Xaben (food) - 'like our haben / hobben'
Xordo - small
All the best
Cj I'm a couple of years late on this one Cj, but I recognise these unusual spellings.
These are transliterations from the Cylliric alphabet (Russian) never perfect at the best of times. And depending what the target language originally was would affect the outcome.
Your right about the J pronounced as a Y or in the Russian they would use that back to front R.
Try pronouncing a D before those Zh's like in my name "George" could be written "Dzhordzh" close by not quite there is it? Not that the Eastern Europeans would pronounce the D. But we do! Even when it's not there!! Take the girls name Jenny = Dzhenny, but never Zhenny!
That X they use is pronounced like the ch in Scottish loch, difficult for us to pronounce on the front of a word. Try pronouncing that X as a Kh and not as an H.
The spellings you've listed lead me to think that the target language of the transliteration was German and not English.
I hope I've helped a little your quest to decipher the roots of Romany.
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rawny
Posts:85
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| 05/12/2009 4:58 PM |
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| Thats interesting, you must know a bit about languages then |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 05/13/2009 7:39 AM |
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A bit yes, I've always loved to travel and have always veered away from the touristy sites and prefering to meet the local people. So learn a little of the languages I come across.
|
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cathayb
Posts:121
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| 05/13/2009 12:54 PM |
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| the thing about romanus it is not a written language.remeber few gypsies could read or write.its only recently gypsies have started trying to write their words down and then very few as most gypsies would refer to keep it secret so what your getting in the main is gaujos interpretation of the written romany word.also romanus although the nouns are very often the same the building words such as but ,as and ,ec., are adopted from the country. |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 05/13/2009 8:01 PM |
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Hi Cathayb
You're right about that, I've noticed all Gypsies use the grammar of the country they live in. Although the (Romany) words change a bit (and sometimes a lot!) in pronounciation from country to country, a good deal of them I understand. It's not surprising that Romany has lost it's grammar, having never been a written language and all that wandering about that the Gypsy peolpe like to do!
When a language has a written form, it takes on a set standard and then evolves slowly, without that written form changes happen fast, even faster if it's speakers are moving from country to country.
All the different spellings of the word "gorga" (even on this site) show that there isn't yet a standard even today. The desire to keep the language secret and that coupled with the historical lack of reading and writing skills amongst the Romany has lead to and will continue it's decline. Which is a shame. |
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rawny
Posts:85
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| 05/14/2009 3:49 PM |
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| Its a shame yes ,when i was younger i was never interested in speaking romanes , only know a few words , i dont think my father was fluant but he knew a good bit , wish id have taken a interest now,i would loveto be fluant in differant languages i think its a wonderful thing , to be able to converse with people when in their enviroment gives you a differant perspective on them |
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GeorgeInSurrey
Posts:7
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| 05/15/2009 4:48 PM |
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Posted By xrosiex on 15 May 2009 02:12
i feel that its a big shame that our language is dieing and gypsy children seem to know hardly any anymore which i blame the parents for we all should do more to teach our children by using the words we know when we speak to them, after all i feel our language is part of what makes us what we are.
its nice to read what you have to say about our language George i love to learn about Romany words so please carry on teaching us all more of what you know====Rosie====
LOL, I don't thing with my gorga upbringing that I'm anyone to teach you about the Romany language! I would love to be able to put together even one full sentence in Romany.
Isn't there a Romany/English dictionary available somewhere? Or has anybody got any links to some Romany poetry or stories?
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Moderator
Posts:680
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| 05/16/2009 6:47 AM |
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| Hi George if you look at top of page under History & Culture in the drop down menu is a Whole section on History & Language and also Gypsy Customs & sayings :)) |
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| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
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ActiveForums 3.7
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