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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 29 May 2006 01:12 |
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Hi everyone, I posted some stuff about my family history a few weeks ago, but although having ascertained that my great-grandmother came from 'traveller' families on both her mother's and father's sides, it made me wonder what where the differences between 'traveller' and 'romany'?
Clara |
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 30 May 2006 19:19 |
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Thanks, Bang, that really makes some sort of sense to me. I wonder if that's what my ancestors were - travellers, rather than Rom?
The hearsay from my family is as follows; my great-great grandparents were James Pannell and Fanny Newland (sometimes known as Proudley). Apparently, the family story goes that Fanny came from a 'good Romany family', whatever that may mean. On the Romany and Traveller site, all these surnames are known to be traveller/?Rom surnames in the south of England.....?
James Pannell's occupations were peg-maker, broom-maker, pedlar, hawker, and hop-picker, on various censuses and also on baptismal records. All his children were born around Crawley, Ewhurst, Ithingfield and Horsham.
My mum's cousin, called Beulah Pannell, recalled a story told by her father (Fred) that he used to go hop picking with his father, James Pannell. On one occasion, when they were returning from the pub (!), they saw a shadowy figure, which they thought was a ghost, but as they got closer it turned out to be a white horse. Another story recalls James Pannell having a dispute with another gypsy in St Leonard's Forest about some wood. This resulted in a curse being put upon the family.
Beulah Pannell always was proud of her Rom/traveller heritage and was really put out about the fact the the Pannells couldn't read: she always said that, even though they couldn't read, they were intelligent folk!!!
Still not sure whether we might be real Rom or just travellers? Very difficult to trace these people back using census info, etc....
Cheers for all the feedback - what a really nice, helpful site!!
Not sure what kushti bok means, but I'm sure it translates to, cheers, matey!!
Clara
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 04 Jun 2006 17:11 |
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Now then, what are you like?!! 
What's happened to my original post - turned into a discussion about booze!! 
Was looking for a photo of my great-grandmother, Jane Pannell, to post but can't find one - my mum's still has most of the family pics. I think she was quite fair, so looks like we weren't true Romany (sorry, Bang...). I think though that Jane Pannell wanted to drop her traveller roots because I've found her on the 1891 census, working as a servant in Brighton. Her family are still in the Horsham area, working as hawkers.
However, she ended up still living the 'traveller' lifestyle, because she married my great-grandfather, who was a coastguard. Coastguards never stayed very long anywhere during the 19th, early 20th century and got moved on about every 2 years. Jane Pannell went all around the coasts of Ireland with her husband's job..... so she would have been an ideal wife for him! 
best wishes to you
Clara |
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 04 Jun 2006 18:43 |
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Come on, Bang, are you not taking me for that drink?!
Will have to get hold of photos of my great-grandma - she certainly wasn't dark-skinned.... but she certainly was from a traveller family.....
best wishes
Clara |
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 04 Jun 2006 18:48 |
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Meant to say, all my 'traveller' families are listed on the Romany and Traveller Site (www.rtfhs.org.uk): Pannell, Newland, Proudley.....
Clara |
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indigo
Posts:20
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| 23 Feb 2010 19:52 |
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ok,i have just read these posts,and im thinking...my grandads surname was king,he was i think in kent,then the iow but originally irish (and scottish too i believe) parents,well my mum told me,and her mum her,grandads family were irish gypsies....i now realise reading this post from bang...that they are travellers if irish,not gypsies!but my nan told our family in her words" they were proper irish gypsies,with dark hair,and dark sallow skin!"on the whole i know people who originate from ireland are fair skinned,so i just wondered what you made of this?lol
also,does anyone know anything about the kings,sadly my nans gone into the light last year,so cant ask anymore,and my mum doesnt seem too interested in this side of her family for personal reasons,so be nice to know a little more!!!
zen
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Ditch
Posts:48
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| 29 Mar 2010 14:11 |
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Indigo; Regarding the Irish Gypsys? They're just like anyone else, these days. Mate of mine has black hair, brown eyes and dark skin. His sisters all have jet black hair but, I wouldn't say they appear particularly dark skinned, to me. Could be make up? Wouldn't know. Neither the mother or father are dark either. Maybe he's a bit of a genetic throw back then?
But, him aside? I honestly don't think I've seen any others here as dark as Bernie. Just as I knew precious few Romani Gypsies in england who fit the 'story book' image.
Come to think of it; I'm not sure I could come up with a single, red haired Irishman either! True!
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indigo
Posts:20
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| 13 Feb 2011 17:58 |
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hahaha...very true,you cant tell from looks alone always.i now know there was some confusion there anyway,the travellers were on my nans mums side instead,but this was far back in family tree,think the name then was burke,my nans dads family some of them my nan told my mum lived and travelled in the old vardos,they were the gypsy side,and there surname was king,my nans dad was edward king,i know his aunt was carrie king as i have a little note from her in a china blue boot given as an easter present dated 1906,but i dont know any other names,wish i did,i know we have the cooke's too,as my 3rd cousine and family are that name,and i believe they may also be from gypsy or traveller decsent,i believe its also on otherside family through marriage but not all details yet, my dads side family and my half sister,whos a pennicotte-henrie...have always had traveller and gypsy friends,its just annoyingly hardwork trying to find all the exact details of my own family,especially being the only one who takes a real interest in it,my nan would use the odd romane word in conversation ,im told when around certain members of family,its just such a shame i feel,that they all want to keep it a bit brushed under the carpet really,as im so so proud to have partly gypsy/traveller roots,maybe back then it was frowned upon once we moved to the isle of wight,but its a real real shame!!!x
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| Author |
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 05/29/2006 1:12 AM |
|
Hi everyone, I posted some stuff about my family history a few weeks ago, but although having ascertained that my great-grandmother came from 'traveller' families on both her mother's and father's sides, it made me wonder what where the differences between 'traveller' and 'romany'?
Clara |
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 05/30/2006 7:19 PM |
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Thanks, Bang, that really makes some sort of sense to me. I wonder if that's what my ancestors were - travellers, rather than Rom?
The hearsay from my family is as follows; my great-great grandparents were James Pannell and Fanny Newland (sometimes known as Proudley). Apparently, the family story goes that Fanny came from a 'good Romany family', whatever that may mean. On the Romany and Traveller site, all these surnames are known to be traveller/?Rom surnames in the south of England.....?
James Pannell's occupations were peg-maker, broom-maker, pedlar, hawker, and hop-picker, on various censuses and also on baptismal records. All his children were born around Crawley, Ewhurst, Ithingfield and Horsham.
My mum's cousin, called Beulah Pannell, recalled a story told by her father (Fred) that he used to go hop picking with his father, James Pannell. On one occasion, when they were returning from the pub (!), they saw a shadowy figure, which they thought was a ghost, but as they got closer it turned out to be a white horse. Another story recalls James Pannell having a dispute with another gypsy in St Leonard's Forest about some wood. This resulted in a curse being put upon the family.
Beulah Pannell always was proud of her Rom/traveller heritage and was really put out about the fact the the Pannells couldn't read: she always said that, even though they couldn't read, they were intelligent folk!!!
Still not sure whether we might be real Rom or just travellers? Very difficult to trace these people back using census info, etc....
Cheers for all the feedback - what a really nice, helpful site!!
Not sure what kushti bok means, but I'm sure it translates to, cheers, matey!!
Clara
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 06/04/2006 5:11 PM |
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Now then, what are you like?!!
What's happened to my original post - turned into a discussion about booze!!
Was looking for a photo of my great-grandmother, Jane Pannell, to post but can't find one - my mum's still has most of the family pics. I think she was quite fair, so looks like we weren't true Romany (sorry, Bang...). I think though that Jane Pannell wanted to drop her traveller roots because I've found her on the 1891 census, working as a servant in Brighton. Her family are still in the Horsham area, working as hawkers.
However, she ended up still living the 'traveller' lifestyle, because she married my great-grandfather, who was a coastguard. Coastguards never stayed very long anywhere during the 19th, early 20th century and got moved on about every 2 years. Jane Pannell went all around the coasts of Ireland with her husband's job..... so she would have been an ideal wife for him!
best wishes to you
Clara |
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 06/04/2006 6:43 PM |
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Come on, Bang, are you not taking me for that drink?!
Will have to get hold of photos of my great-grandma - she certainly wasn't dark-skinned.... but she certainly was from a traveller family.....
best wishes
Clara |
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clarafmshaw
Posts:10
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| 06/04/2006 6:48 PM |
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Meant to say, all my 'traveller' families are listed on the Romany and Traveller Site (www.rtfhs.org.uk): Pannell, Newland, Proudley.....
Clara |
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indigo
Posts:20
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| 02/23/2010 7:52 PM |
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ok,i have just read these posts,and im thinking...my grandads surname was king,he was i think in kent,then the iow but originally irish (and scottish too i believe) parents,well my mum told me,and her mum her,grandads family were irish gypsies....i now realise reading this post from bang...that they are travellers if irish,not gypsies!but my nan told our family in her words" they were proper irish gypsies,with dark hair,and dark sallow skin!"on the whole i know people who originate from ireland are fair skinned,so i just wondered what you made of this?lol
also,does anyone know anything about the kings,sadly my nans gone into the light last year,so cant ask anymore,and my mum doesnt seem too interested in this side of her family for personal reasons,so be nice to know a little more!!!
zen
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|
Ditch
Posts:48
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| 03/29/2010 2:11 PM |
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Indigo; Regarding the Irish Gypsys? They're just like anyone else, these days. Mate of mine has black hair, brown eyes and dark skin. His sisters all have jet black hair but, I wouldn't say they appear particularly dark skinned, to me. Could be make up? Wouldn't know. Neither the mother or father are dark either. Maybe he's a bit of a genetic throw back then?
But, him aside? I honestly don't think I've seen any others here as dark as Bernie. Just as I knew precious few Romani Gypsies in england who fit the 'story book' image.
Come to think of it; I'm not sure I could come up with a single, red haired Irishman either! True!
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indigo
Posts:20
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| 02/13/2011 5:58 PM |
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hahaha...very true,you cant tell from looks alone always.i now know there was some confusion there anyway,the travellers were on my nans mums side instead,but this was far back in family tree,think the name then was burke,my nans dads family some of them my nan told my mum lived and travelled in the old vardos,they were the gypsy side,and there surname was king,my nans dad was edward king,i know his aunt was carrie king as i have a little note from her in a china blue boot given as an easter present dated 1906,but i dont know any other names,wish i did,i know we have the cooke's too,as my 3rd cousine and family are that name,and i believe they may also be from gypsy or traveller decsent,i believe its also on otherside family through marriage but not all details yet, my dads side family and my half sister,whos a pennicotte-henrie...have always had traveller and gypsy friends,its just annoyingly hardwork trying to find all the exact details of my own family,especially being the only one who takes a real interest in it,my nan would use the odd romane word in conversation ,im told when around certain members of family,its just such a shame i feel,that they all want to keep it a bit brushed under the carpet really,as im so so proud to have partly gypsy/traveller roots,maybe back then it was frowned upon once we moved to the isle of wight,but its a real real shame!!!x
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